"Cultural Appropriation"

[The Grand Nudger]

I think it's perfectly apt to speak about what we think of as the OP's misunderstandings, and I don't have a problem with people bringing their own definitions to such a fucking murky term.

The point I keep trying to make is that it's -not- a murky term as used in reference to the narrow set.  People have intentionally tried to muddy the water, sure.  The whole thing was -about- specific and accurate distinctions between different types of cultural transfer.  Calling them -all- cultural appropriation -was- murky.  

I may well be misspeaking when I use the term "cultural genocide", but the way I see it, even those genocidal cultures (America vs the natives, for example) adopted the cultural practices of the vanquished, even as the victims' cultures are eradicated in practice (perhaps to assuage guilt? Who knows?) But that's okay -- I think the practice is more important than the parlance.

They did, and they adopted many of them through means that would not be called -in my use- cultural appropriation.  For example..even though there was genocide, there was also exchange.  With african american and white american culture there was no attempt at genocide in the history of rock and roll, for example, but there was appropriation and exchange.  This is why it's useful to have those distinctions.  

I guess I'd ask at this point, given ANY definition of cultural appropriation, what most of us here, or I specifically as a middle-aged white guy, should do about it.

Historic examples?  Acknowledging that it happened.  There's nothing else to do about it now except to show our acknowledgement by opposing any present attempt at the same old trick.

Is there some aspect of the social contract, or of a basic moral foundation, which should compel me to take up arms, to make it a point to stand up in support of an issue or group, or even to change what music, art, etc. I like?

Human solidarity. Basic empathy. A commitment to justice. A refusal to commit past mistakes of apathy and indifference. Do you listen to white supremicist music? Most would say no, they intentionally avoid buying nazi shit from nazis. You probably already do what the "correct" response would be.

Thump and I served, we made a commitment to serve even the groups we don;t like. I doubt that you've ever decided not to teach a kid because you don't like them or because they were from a different cultural group than yourself. Be pretty hard to do, given what you do, eh? -Most- of us stand up and support the people around us, regardless, in every imagineable way. Others make chimpsound "never happened and it was a good thing".

If the question is what you should do about cultural exchange..well..the answer is decidedly different. Embrace it for how it's improved all of our lives - especially the music and the words, lol.

[Thumpalumpacus]

The distinctions are indeed useful. I'll have to do some more reading on the mainstream definition before I can comment much further. This is one of those threads where I leave it understanding that I'm more ignorant than I thought I was -- and that's a good thing.

[Shell B]

Khemical, I have no idea why you're unwilling to admit that at least a large portion of the world doesn't define cultural appropriation the way that you do. I provided definitions and usages from two of the most prestigious dictionaries in the world. Yet, you still continue to make statements like "that's not cultural appropriation the way the term means" and "unless you're an alt-white racist, your culture doesn't think of cultural appropriation as buying a dream catcher." The only time I've seen cultural appropriation described as you have just described it is by you in this thread. I bet that's the case for several people.

Benny, my race is still irrelevant, and you might think gender is not important, but you're the one who described me as a white woman and then dismissed me for it. I didn't dismiss the feelings of the person who doesn't like people using dreamcatchers. I simply am not going to apply them to my everyday life. I personally think he or she is being a bit of a crybaby about it. Given that it's in reference to "spirituality," I'm not given to caring about the origin of these items. They don't get more respect because they're native.

ETA: I did see that you used the term "in my usage" in your most recent post, Khemical. Well, there you go. The way you define it, it's shitty. I doubt that's in question. Killing, hurting, disenfranchising people and then using their culture is bad. Having dreadlocks is not. /thread.

[paulpablo]

As I said before it's basically redefined by some people so that only white people can do it.

The same kind of thing as people who define racism as systematic power plus prejudice and oppression (whatever else) instead of just racial prejudice.

So instead of just cultural apropriation being about use of someone else's culture the apropriator has to have a colonial relationship, the appropriated has to be an oppressed group.
Add whatever else you want to make up as you go along so essentially you're just talking about something a white person can do and barely anyone else.

Khemicals outlook is laughably simplistic and vague.
It's basically the blacks got stole from, the owners of this "black culture" (a laughably vague term) and who stole the black culture, it was the American whites.

[bennyboy]

Benny, my race is still irrelevant, and you might think gender is not important, but you're the one who described me as a white woman and then dismissed me for it. I didn't dismiss the feelings of the person who doesn't like people using dreamcatchers. I simply am not going to apply them to my everyday life. I personally think he or she is being a bit of a crybaby about it. Given that it's in reference to "spirituality," I'm not given to caring about the origin of these items. They don't get more respect because they're native.

Race is for sure relevant, because Tizheruk's culture and racial identity are bound, and you are of neither. Saying what he should/shouldn't consider important, or how he should/shouldn't want people of other cultures or races to interact with his, seems inappropriate. Whether you should be expected to care enough not to have a dream catcher is a different issue.

While I definitely recognize that Tizheruk's claims are legitimate, he/she hasn't come up with a good enough reason for me to really care deeply about the issue or take any action. I just can't find it in my little charcoal heart to care about that. Now, when it comes to reparations for natives-- extra help with school funding, drug and training programs, or straight up cash-- I'm all for it. But dreamcatchers-- meh. This is an atheist forum, and it's not really reasonable to expect anyone here to give much of a crap about things because they have spiritual significance to someone. In fact, it seems to me that ANY interest people take in native Americans is likely to generate more sympathy, and more action about things that might matter.

I do have a question for you, though. If I go pee on you parents' graves, would you say, "Oh. . . it's just dirt and dead tissue, that doesn't matter much"? Or is there still some cultural vestige in which despite the literal unimportance of bones to our lives, you'd still be deeply offended?

[Thumpalumpacus]

I have no doubt that many have pissed on the bones of my forebears. And quite frankly, my own father was shitbag enough that I wouldn't have a problem doing it myself.

[Shell B]

Race is for sure relevant, because Tizheruk's culture and racial identity are bound, and you are of neither.  Saying what he should/shouldn't consider important, or how he should/shouldn't want people of other cultures or races to interact with his, seems inappropriate.  Whether you should be expected to care enough not to have a dream catcher is a different issue.

It's not a different issue. I don't care at all what Tiz cares about. I'm saying I don't care about the same thing. That's it. Also, I'm born and bred in Massachusetts. Do you really think I don't have any Native American in my blood? (Hint: your assumptions are wrong)

I do have a question for you, though.  If I go pee on you parents' graves, would you say, "Oh. . . it's just dirt and dead tissue, that doesn't matter much"?  Or is there still some cultural vestige in which despite the literal unimportance of bones to our lives, you'd still be deeply offended?

Did I say it was okay for people to piss on people's deceased loved ones? You don't have a parallel. That said, yeah, it would hardly matter to me. My parents won't have graves. I too think graves are stupid.

[bennyboy]

It's not a different issue. I don't care at all what Tiz cares about. I'm saying I don't care about the same thing. That's it. Also, I'm born and bred in Massachusetts. Do you really think I don't have any Native American in my blood? (Hint: your assumptions are wrong)

Yeah, yeah, I'm part native, too. But I don't identify much with my tribe (it's Penobscot) because it's ancient history. Being 1/16 or 1/32 native (or whatever it is) means very little about how I should treat people with a cultural grievance.

Did I say it was okay for people to piss on people's deceased loved ones? You don't have a parallel. That said, yeah, it would hardly matter to me. My parents won't have graves. I too think graves are stupid.

Sure there's a parallel. In both cases, there's no real harm being done, and the slight is in the mind of the one being slighted. Most people will think it's fine to buy and own a dream catcher, but it's a horrible social crime to pee on someone's grave. The truth is that there's no real difference, except which culture one belongs to.

As for me, I want my family to bury me in the back yard and plant an apple tree over me. Then every spring they can comment on how beautifully Dad has fed the blossoms this year, and every summer they can eat a little piece of dear old Dad.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Allowing everyone to set the offense-o-meter for society at large doesn't seem very useful, to me. It seems like a race to the lowest common denominator.

To be open -- I'm offended plenty by much that I see. But I don't think that my offense is so special that others should take note of it, outside of me piping up. You want to use racial slurs? Go on ahead, identify yourself as a racist to me. I want to hang a dreamcatcher on my wall? If that hurts you, I'm sorry, but unlike the racial slurs that offend me, I'm not sticking it in your face -- I'm sticking it on my wall.

Not all offense is equal, and not all offense demands a social response. Not all appropriation is insulting, and not all ignorance is intentional.

[Shell B]

Indeed, it doesn't mean the same thing to all people. Intention is very important when it comes to what is acceptable to me or not. If you use a racial slur to tell me a joke that is just clever, and I know you're not actually a racist, I don't care. If you scream racial slurs at someone because they cut you off in traffic, I'm pissed.

Using the pissing on the grave analogy, someone else might be horribly offended by it. However, there's a musician whose fans go out of their way to piss on his grave because it's what he would have wanted. They do it out of love.