"Free Will" Belief/Disbelief Poll

[Ervin]

I voted yes. I believe that free will and determinisam are compatible.

Thanks

[Violet]

My gods... since when did 'free will' regain momentum? 0.o

[theVOID]

Care to explain how Ervin?

If we are fully determined we are not free to do something other that what we were determined to do, so how can we be 'free' (in a contra-causal sense) while being determined?

Imo 'Free From' freedoms are the only ones that really matter and the only ones we have if caused will exists, and 'free from' freedoms are not 'free will'

[jason56]

I think the only debate going on here is to define the meaning of "free" and "will".

They're human concepts and therefore don't exist outside of the human mind. It's like arguing with a mathematician that infinity doesn't exist. We're not going to prove the concept of free will without defining our own arguments. And even then, it doesn't matter if your will is technically free or not, you'll still look up at the Sun and thank the lord for another day in paradise.

Like every animal.

[theVOID]

What the fuck have you been smoking Jason? Just because something is a concept does not mean that the thing it points to does not exist. If we have 'free-will' in the contra-causal sense then we have freedom of action that is non-contingent upon our physical caused being, or at least some part of our physical being is acausal - This is what 'free will' means in by far the most commonly used definition. I argue that there are no acausal events at that scale, and even if there were, an acausal intention, which is absolutely required, is even less likely to exist.

I agree that it doesn't matter, in either model the actual will displayed is indistinguishable, be it caused or not we still experience the same thing. What ultimately lends weight to this debate is the existence of the necessary phenomenon in each circumstance. In the case of determinism (at relativistic scales at least) we have extremely good evidence for complete causality in all and every circumstance, ruling out free will if we stick with what is known, where as with 'free-will' we require acausal events, something that is not known to exist at all at relevant scales (or potentially at all).

Thus free-will requires the assumption of the existence of a phenomenon for which we have no evidence at the relevant scales, you can call occams razor into play here, and since caused will requires less assumptions it is the preferred explanation.

[theVOID]

My gods... since when did 'free will' regain momentum? 0.o

Since apparently so many of us skeptics are still under the illusion that it exists.

[Violet]

My gods... since when did 'free will' regain momentum? 0.o

Since apparently so many of us skeptics are still under the illusion that it exists.

So now I may be skeptical that some of us skeptics are skeptics? ^_^

Come to think, maybe it is rather that none of us are skeptics. We all believe something, don't we? That's not even a fair question, because it forces a yes answer. Unless it has no sense of... anything... 0.o

Rocks must be the world's greatest skeptics

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I think the only debate going on here is to define the meaning of "free" and "will".

I consider freedom to be what can be done, and would dispute the use of it in most cases I see. Will has a number of uses, which include his being my cook, bodyguard, doctor, dentist, and good friend. How do you describe the two?

They're human concepts and therefore don't exist outside of the human mind.

Yet... that which can be known by your own "human mind" is the only existence you can know. Unfortunately, I see many a solipsist take that to mean 'nothing can be known' or be considered 'real'.

It's like arguing with a mathematician that infinity doesn't exist.

It does... and so do Gandalf and Dumbledoor. Why would you think otherwise?

We're not going to prove the concept of free will without defining our own arguments.

Isn't that what they were sorta... doing?

And even then, it doesn't matter if your will is technically free or not, you'll still look up at the Sun and thank the lord for another day in paradise.

Like every animal.

You know... it really doesn't matter. Why not? Because we couldn't detect the difference between our actions being determined by who we are in the situation... and us acting in a situation based on who we are.

And I've yet to see a chihuahua express gratitude. The damn rodents just YIPYIPYIPYIPYIP, even if I'm being the nicest person I know how to be. Give them a treat? YIPYIPYIPYIPYIP! Give them a toy? YIPYIPYIPYIPYIP! Give them a shock collar? YIP-bzt-YIP-bzt-YIP-bzt-YIP!!!!

Damn things cannot be pleased, that is my conclusion. I can only try to shut them up or remove them from the vicinity (making their barks less annoying).

Oh, and I don't express my gratitude for existing to the sun, or any gods, or aliens. Rather, sometimes (rarely) I wish that it/they would magically fix some things for me. But I stopped holding out on that idea some years ago now. Doesn't mean I don't wish it would happen... it's just not feasible as I see it.

Oh, and sponges also don't seem very good at expressing gratitude. Yeah yeah... tell me "dead things can't express gratitude!"... it should fucking consider itself lucky that I didn't use it for the toilet. It's buddy is considerably less so.

[Edwardo Piet]

My gods... since when did 'free will' regain momentum? 0.o

Since apparently so many of us skeptics are still under the illusion that it exists.

I prefer the term delusion. As with God, many people think there are signs that he is there, but that's a matter of perspective.

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Come to think, maybe it is rather that none of us are skeptics. We all believe something, don't we?

Wtf? NTS.

[jason56]

I think the only debate going on here is to define the meaning of "free" and "will".

I consider freedom to be what can be done, and would dispute the use of it in most cases I see. Will has a number of uses, which include his being my cook, bodyguard, doctor, dentist, and good friend. How do you describe the two?

Yes, but two people will never paint the same picture of an event.

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They're human concepts and therefore don't exist outside of the human mind.

Yet... that which can be known by your own "human mind" is the only existence you can know. Unfortunately, I see many a solipsist take that to mean 'nothing can be known' or be considered 'real'.

You can take some things as red purely because it aids us to do so, but it's still for our own amusement. If the human mind was rendered "stupid" by a "higher" life form then... we're just pigs in shit arguing over a carrot.

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It's like arguing with a mathematician that infinity doesn't exist.

It does... and so do Gandalf and Dumbledoor. Why would you think otherwise?

Infinity is another example of man defeating man. We invented the concept of numbers to use as a tool, but we end up with infinity as a by-product of our imperfect labelling of the universe.

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We're not going to prove the concept of free will without defining our own arguments.

Isn't that what they were sorta... doing?

Yeah, you've got me there.

---

And even then, it doesn't matter if your will is technically free or not, you'll still look up at the Sun and thank the lord for another day in paradise.

Like every animal.

You know... it really doesn't matter. Why not? Because we couldn't detect the difference between our actions being determined by who we are in the situation... and us acting in a situation based on who we are.

And I've yet to see a chihuahua express gratitude. The damn rodents just YIPYIPYIPYIPYIP, even if I'm being the nicest person I know how to be. Give them a treat? YIPYIPYIPYIPYIP! Give them a toy? YIPYIPYIPYIPYIP! Give them a shock collar? YIP-bzt-YIP-bzt-YIP-bzt-YIP!!!!

Damn things cannot be pleased, that is my conclusion. I can only try to shut them up or remove them from the vicinity (making their barks less annoying).

Oh, and I don't express my gratitude for existing to the sun, or any gods, or aliens. Rather, sometimes (rarely) I wish that it/they would magically fix some things for me. But I stopped holding out on that idea some years ago now. Doesn't mean I don't wish it would happen... it's just not feasible as I see it.

Oh, and sponges also don't seem very good at expressing gratitude. Yeah yeah... tell me "dead things can't express gratitude!"... it should fucking consider itself lucky that I didn't use it for the toilet. It's buddy is considerably less so.

Just because we're the most "intelligent" animal doesn't actually guarantee any of the ideas we come up with. There is no more benefit to being a human being passing on your genes than a rat. Only the rat doesn't burden itself with the concept of free will, it would probably be out having sex right now... and not posting "shit" on a forum.

It's all about perspective, baby.

[theVOID]

My gods... since when did 'free will' regain momentum? 0.o

Since apparently so many of us skeptics are still under the illusion that it exists.

So now I may be skeptical that some of us skeptics are skeptics? ^_^

Come to think, maybe it is rather that none of us are skeptics. We all believe something, don't we? That's not even a fair question, because it forces a yes answer. Unless it has no sense of... anything... 0.o

Rocks must be the world's greatest skeptics

A Skeptic is not someone who disbelieves everything either though, so rocks are not skeptics