Bill Maher 6/9/17

[Zen Badger]

And here's another thought to ponder, if he had used the word slave instead of nigger( and the meaning would've basically been the same) would we be having this discussion?

I don't think we would. It was the word, not the context in which it was used, that was across the line.

It is a double standard, and white people are just going to have to accept it. I'm sorry, but most systematically oppressed peoples usually coopt words used against them, and once those words are exposed for what they are, the majority loses them---forever. You can't say it. If you do, you do it knowing that the word, especially in America, has a specific meaning, and that meaning is, as Ice Cube put it, like a knife in the chest to brown people. It is our word now, we have taken it, and you can't have it back.

As a black man in America, I don't like using it, I don't like hearing it in rap songs, but that is a different section of my culture that may or may not ever change.

I am a fan of Bill Maher, and I fully understand his point. He went for the joke; he---more than 99% of all other comedians, makes his living on the razor edge of 'appropriate.' He knows he crossed the line. He made an apology, then nutted up and invited critical voices on his show the next week, and let them speak. I commend him for that.

So double standards are okay as long as it's black people who are using them?

[SteelCurtain]

I don't think we would. It was the word, not the context in which it was used, that was across the line.

It is a double standard, and white people are just going to have to accept it. I'm sorry, but most systematically oppressed peoples usually coopt words used against them, and once those words are exposed for what they are, the majority loses them---forever. You can't say it. If you do, you do it knowing that the word, especially in America, has a specific meaning, and that meaning is, as Ice Cube put it, like a knife in the chest to brown people. It is our word now, we have taken it, and you can't have it back.

As a black man in America, I don't like using it, I don't like hearing it in rap songs, but that is a different section of my culture that may or may not ever change.

I am a fan of Bill Maher, and I fully understand his point. He went for the joke; he---more than 99% of all other comedians, makes his living on the razor edge of 'appropriate.' He knows he crossed the line. He made an apology, then nutted up and invited critical voices on his show the next week, and let them speak. I commend him for that.

So double standards are okay as long as it's black people who are using them?

I'm not saying it's okay. I'm saying it's a thing that has happened. And it's not just black people. It's a thing that systematically oppressed minorities are wont to do. Women, gays, Jews, black people---they get to say words that we don't.

Let's consider it a trade off---we trade the double standard wherein white kids with the same charge and the same criminal history get much shorter jail sentences than their black counterparts, and we get to say a word that you can't.

[Kernel Sohcahtoa]

This incident reminds me of the episode "Savage Curtain" from Star Trek (the original series).  In this episode, IMO, an interesting dialog takes place between Uhura and Abraham Lincoln.

*In posting this, my intent is to share a dialog and not to offend or upset anyone.  


Background

Lincoln has boarded Enterprise and is on the bridge with Spock, Kirk, and the bridge crew.  As Kirk and Spock are explaining some of the wonderful technological feats of Enterprise, Uhura enters the bridge and addresses Captain Kirk. In response to Kirk and Uhura's exchange, the following dialog ensues between Lincoln, Uhura, and Kirk:


Lincoln: A charming Negress

[in response, Uhura looks at him with a neutral yet curious expression but doesn't respond.]

Lincoln: Oh...forgive me my dear.  I know that in my time some use that term as a description of property.

Uhura: But why should I object to that term, sir? You see, in our century, we've learned not to fear words.

[Kirk introduces Uhura to Lincoln, and Uhura and Lincoln shake hands in an amiable, welcoming manner.]

Lincoln: The foolishness of my century had me apologizing where no offense was given.

Kirk: We've each learned to be delighted with what we are.

[henryp]

I don't think we would. It was the word, not the context in which it was used, that was across the line.

It is a double standard, and white people are just going to have to accept it. I'm sorry, but most systematically oppressed peoples usually coopt words used against them, and once those words are exposed for what they are, the majority loses them---forever. You can't say it. If you do, you do it knowing that the word, especially in America, has a specific meaning, and that meaning is, as Ice Cube put it, like a knife in the chest to brown people. It is our word now, we have taken it, and you can't have it back.

As a black man in America, I don't like using it, I don't like hearing it in rap songs, but that is a different section of my culture that may or may not ever change.

I am a fan of Bill Maher, and I fully understand his point. He went for the joke; he---more than 99% of all other comedians, makes his living on the razor edge of 'appropriate.' He knows he crossed the line. He made an apology, then nutted up and invited critical voices on his show the next week, and let them speak. I commend him for that.

So double standards are okay as long as it's black people who are using them?

I can slap my wife on the ass.  That it's unacceptable for others to slap my wife on the ass is not a double standard.  Being a part of black america is a cultural relationship of sorts.  They can slap eachother on the ass.  You're not in the relationship, so you can't.   Just because one person can do something and another person can't doesn't automatically make it a double standard.  

The other thing with Maher, is that although he's a comedian making a funny joke, which I think in a bubble is fine, he's also in very close proximity to the political spectrum, and for every Bill Maher one liner, there are 100 people named Dale just tossing it around maliciously who can then say Bill Maher said it, so why can't I?  It sucks for Bill Maher, but it's probably in the overall best interest of society to not make it okay yet.  So while it might be dopey for me to say 'n word', it costs me nothing, and serves a purpose, which is keeping it not okay for people who shouldn't be using it.

[Zen Badger]

No, I don't accept that.
If nigger is a demeaning term it remains so regardless of who uses it.
And you can't complain about other people using it when you yourself make money from it.

[henryp]

No, I don't accept that.
If nigger is a demeaning term it remains so regardless of who uses it.
And you can't complain about other people using it when you yourself make money from it.

There are endless examples of situations where the context of the relationship between two people determines whether or not a word/phrase/action is demeaning/offensive or not.  Why would that not apply here?

[Zen Badger]

Then why is the context that Maher used it in being ignored?
He wasn't directly insulting anyone.

[henryp]

Because his relationship with the black community is not one that makes it okay.

I can jovially call a friend fucknutz. I can't jovially call a stranger fucknutz. Even if intent is same.

[Zen Badger]

Ah, I see.
So I have a good friend who's black, we call each other brother from another mother.
So is it ok then for me to call him nigger?

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Ah, I see.
So I have a good friend who's black, we call each other brother from another mother.
So is it ok then for me to call him nigger?

Depends.
Does he knock your teeth out after you say it? Then no.