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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
July 13, 2017 at 10:17 pm
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2017 at 10:30 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(July 13, 2017 at 10:12 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Ok...so we established (I think) that you are not saying.... what is immoral causes harm nor that which causes harm is immoral. "We", and by "we" I mean "I' established what I needed to establish without your assistance and before you ever took issue.
Quote:How is it, that you equate the two...(let alone the charge that I do as well)? I'm confused, because you have answered a number of times with "because it causes harm".
Because you do, and cannot faithfully recount either your faith or my objective morality without parroting -my- propositions. Regardless of whether or not -you- acknowledge that or even know that you do.
Quote:Perhaps you should stop arguing like a 12 year old, and think through these things, and express your self more fully. Just my subjective opinion. If I'm incorrectly representing you, tell me what is wrong. I'm no more impressed by you puffing yourself up, then I am the 12 yr old.
-says the man who, purportedly...smashed his phone in anger and then asked whether or not he had done a moral wrong......?
Get wrecked, nub.
Look, man...if you can abandon this compulsive need to disagree where we don;t even disagree - then we can have an adult conversation. It's possible. I've done it before (and I'll do it again). You and I both propose an objective morality with a fundamental axiom of harm..and where you and I do not agree on what -is- harmful...we...at least, agree on that. Or, we can game back and forth until you finally realize that I was gifted with not only the better gamer genes, but the better gamer stamina - and actively worked for the better gamer discipline. I can wait, essentially, forever, to punish you for mistakes. I'm patient like that. How do you want this to play out?
Is sin not harm? Is it wrong because it is sin, or is it sin because it is harmful? Is there some difference, in your estimation...between the two? Is there harmless sin? ......careful.........
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
July 13, 2017 at 10:25 pm
So how would you make the premise, where you equate the two... since you say I got it wrong? And since you didn't answer the question. When you say they are the same or equivalent, what do you mean. It seems that I covered simple meanings too which you disagreed.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
July 13, 2017 at 10:32 pm
Didn't I answer the question...over and over again, for 50 pages now? Don't be that guy...it's sinful/immoral.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
July 13, 2017 at 10:44 pm
(July 13, 2017 at 10:32 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Didn't I answer the question...over and over again, for 50 pages now? Don't be that guy...it's sinful/immoral.
Ok... if you won't answer the question of how they are the same.... then don't blame me if I don't represent you correctly. How are the two the same?
Is it difficult or something....or is it a pride thing.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
July 13, 2017 at 10:44 pm
Bobs intent to harm his other man makes it wrong
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
July 13, 2017 at 11:02 pm
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2017 at 11:30 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(July 13, 2017 at 10:44 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (July 13, 2017 at 10:32 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Didn't I answer the question...over and over again, for 50 pages now? Don't be that guy...it's sinful/immoral.
Ok... if you won't answer the question of how they are the same.... then don't blame me if I don't represent you correctly. How are the two the same?
Is it difficult or something....or is it a pride thing.
Pride isn't an issue for me...that's you...I can be prideful without remorse in sinfulness. Just one of many subtle differences between your "objective" morality and my own. You have to know, by now...that it's pointless to attempt to shame me...and there are very few people here for you to virtue signal to?
(July 13, 2017 at 10:44 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Bobs intent to harm his other man makes it wrong
Whereas Bobs intent to eat chocolate means fuck all, morally. Thus putting the coals to the "intent-in-a-vacuum" song and dance as an objection to an objective morality based....upon harm.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
July 14, 2017 at 12:59 am
Well the fact that he completely reversed what you were saying means he doesn't understand fuck-all about anything moral, or he's just trolling. I honestly don't fucking understand how, after reading all that, anyone could mistakenly come to the conclusion that you aren't using harm as the axiom. It's about the simplest, most explicit point you're making.
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?
---
There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
July 14, 2017 at 9:45 am
I honestly don't find Khemikal unclear or hard to follow. Moral agency involves making decisions about actions based on moral reasoning. You can't divorce 'harm' from 'intent of a moral agent' and still be talking about morality. With 'harm' as the standard, the intent to cause harm is wrong, even if the attempt is unsuccessful, because it's the intent coupled with action that's wrong, not the success or failure of the action (that falls under competence and luck).
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
July 14, 2017 at 11:18 am
A person has to really, really want to misunderstand this one in order to fuck it up. It's so simple a child can operate it, and they do.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
July 14, 2017 at 2:48 pm
Libertarians have tried to build a set of ethics based on refraining from doing harm; as in no initiation of force or fraud. All of their positions are supposed to derive from that.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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