Westborough Baptist Church - free speech.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Wikipedia has an article on it and a comparable case where Hustler made an article about the evangelist preacher Jerry Falwell having sex with his own mother in an outhouse.  This was also deemed acceptable because it was a parody of a public figure.

That was actually a parody advert, yeah. And spot-on so far as I can tell.

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Current law in the US, as defined by the Supreme Court, is basically that the government cannot regulate speech unless it is basically an incitement to riot.  But that only protects the speaker from being jailed.  If he pisses someone off to the point of violence he runs the risk of assault.  That is why permits are issued so that the police can have a presence to "keep the peace" if need be.

As it should be, I say. If you're so hurt, or motivated, by words, then you'll need to own your own actions.

Just so I'm open about this, I think WBC should be able to protest anything their pointy little hearts desire, and I'd defend that right even as I detest their message.

[henryp]

Current law in the US, as defined by the Supreme Court, is basically that the government cannot regulate speech unless it is basically an incitement to riot.  But that only protects the speaker from being jailed.  If he pisses someone off to the point of violence he runs the risk of assault.  That is why permits are issued so that the police can have a presence to "keep the peace" if need be.

As it should be, I say. If you're so hurt, or motivated, by words, then you'll need to own your own actions.

Just so I'm open about this, I think WBC should be able to protest anything their pointy little hearts desire, and I'd defend that right even as I detest their message.

In a vacuum (which I know doesn't exist), would you take away their right to protest funerals with god hates fags signs? 

There are side effects outside a vacuum.  If you can tell them they can't do it, then slippery slope and such.  But with no threat of slippery slopes, do you still care about their 'right'?

If yes, why?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Because while they have the right to free speech, there exists no right to be free of offense.

[Brian37]

I don't believe in free speech.  I'd be very comfortable with Westboro Baptist people being banned/jailed.  Unfortunately, given how comfortable people in power have been throughout history removing freedom when given an opening, we have to go beyond reasonable free speech to this absurd nonsense we have now to keep any threat to it at bay.

Joe Rogan is one of a group of comedians (Burr, CK, Seinfeld come to mind as others) who have a detached practicality when looking at the world.  We've been brainwashed pretty solid on UNLIMITED FREE SPEECH IS SUPER IMPORTANT.  But for someone like Rogan, I'm guessing there's the nagging voice that looks at it practically, and recognizes that this particular situation is bullshit.  And it is.

There is no polite way to say it, this is a stupid attitude. I have been warning my well intended friends on the left that BULLSHIT PC will be turned on us and used against us.

Fla Gov Rick Scott has passed a law basically making it illegal to tell fuckface science deniers they are wrong. Why, because of  like you thinking "kumbia" will fix things. 

You don't have to like the bigotry and ignorance of the religious right, you should fight it yes. But what you forget is that power shifts over time, and if you start saying "Never say this ever" the other side is going to pull that shit on you. So now if you pick on a creationist who believes that the earth is 6 days old you can get sued or fired.

Free speech is vital to a free society. The only things that are illegal that everyone can agree on are no calls to violence or acts of violence. Outside that it is a stupid idea to give government the power to decide what is or is not offensive.

Speech can only be regulated on a case by case "it depends" bases. Blanket solutions are never a good idea.

You don't defend assholes like Fred Phelps because you like what they say, you defend the long term picture so that you can say what you want. Facts can also be destroyed long term too, like allowing kids to be told bullshit because they hide behind the word religion.

[Minimalist]

As it should be, I say. If you're so hurt, or motivated, by words, then you'll need to own your own actions.

Just so I'm open about this, I think WBC should be able to protest anything their pointy little hearts desire, and I'd defend that right even as I detest their message.

In a vacuum (which I know doesn't exist), would you take away their right to protest funerals with god hates fags signs? 

There are side effects outside a vacuum.  If you can tell them they can't do it, then slippery slope and such.  But with no threat of slippery slopes, do you still care about their 'right'?

If yes, why?

They can act like asses anywhere they like.

“I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to make an ass of yourself.”

― Oscar Wilde

[henryp]

I don't believe in free speech.  I'd be very comfortable with Westboro Baptist people being banned/jailed.  Unfortunately, given how comfortable people in power have been throughout history removing freedom when given an opening, we have to go beyond reasonable free speech to this absurd nonsense we have now to keep any threat to it at bay.

Joe Rogan is one of a group of comedians (Burr, CK, Seinfeld come to mind as others) who have a detached practicality when looking at the world.  We've been brainwashed pretty solid on UNLIMITED FREE SPEECH IS SUPER IMPORTANT.  But for someone like Rogan, I'm guessing there's the nagging voice that looks at it practically, and recognizes that this particular situation is bullshit.  And it is.

There is no polite way to say it, this is a stupid attitude. I have been warning my well intended friends on the left that BULLSHIT PC will be turned on us and used against us.

Fla Gov Rick Scott has passed a law basically making it illegal to tell fuckface science deniers they are wrong. Why, because of  like you thinking "kumbia" will fix things. 

You don't have to like the bigotry and ignorance of the religious right, you should fight it yes. But what you forget is that power shifts over time, and if you start saying "Never say this ever" the other side is going to pull that shit on you. So now if you pick on a creationist who believes that the earth is 6 days old you can get sued or fired.

Free speech is vital to a free society. The only things that are illegal that everyone can agree on are no calls to violence or acts of violence. Outside that it is a stupid idea to give government the power to decide what is or is not offensive.

Speech can only be regulated on a case by case "it depends" bases. Blanket solutions are never a good idea.

You don't defend assholes like Fred Phelps because you like what they say, you defend the long term picture so that you can say what you want. Facts can also be destroyed long term too, like allowing kids to be told bullshit because they hide behind the word religion.

I have the same general conclusion as you, which I stated in the 3rd sentence and bolded.  

Where I think we divege, is that I don't defend Phelps in any capacity.  His stuff is just a flaw in the system.  It's an unfortunate side effect.  Not something to look at in any positive light.  I don't see it as "Look how free we are!  Isn't it amazing!"  Instead, i see it as "This is the shit we have to put up with, because humans are too fucked up to be trusted."

[Minimalist]

Something that often gets overlooked in this debate is that while there is a guarantee of the right to speak there is no constitutional duty to listen.  Clowns like the WBC are a sort of sidewalk freak show which, if no one paid attention to them, would cease.

[Divinity]

The job of the police is to serve and protect, even if they fucking disagree with the people they're serving and protecting. Plain and Fucking Simple. They don't get to choose who they protect and serve, and they damn well shouldn't.

I'm surprised that Police haven't felt 'intimidated' by WBC members carrying Signs, thinking they were knives, and shot a few of them though. Maybe if they were black or asian.

[Brian37]

There is no polite way to say it, this is a stupid attitude. I have been warning my well intended friends on the left that BULLSHIT PC will be turned on us and used against us.

Fla Gov Rick Scott has passed a law basically making it illegal to tell fuckface science deniers they are wrong. Why, because of  like you thinking "kumbia" will fix things. 

You don't have to like the bigotry and ignorance of the religious right, you should fight it yes. But what you forget is that power shifts over time, and if you start saying "Never say this ever" the other side is going to pull that shit on you. So now if you pick on a creationist who believes that the earth is 6 days old you can get sued or fired.

Free speech is vital to a free society. The only things that are illegal that everyone can agree on are no calls to violence or acts of violence. Outside that it is a stupid idea to give government the power to decide what is or is not offensive.

Speech can only be regulated on a case by case "it depends" bases. Blanket solutions are never a good idea.

You don't defend assholes like Fred Phelps because you like what they say, you defend the long term picture so that you can say what you want. Facts can also be destroyed long term too, like allowing kids to be told bullshit because they hide behind the word religion.

I have the same general conclusion as you, which I stated in the 3rd sentence and bolded.  

Where I think we divege, is that I don't defend Phelps in any capacity.  His stuff is just a flaw in the system.  It's an unfortunate side effect.  Not something to look at in any positive light.  I don't see it as "Look how free we are!  Isn't it amazing!"  Instead, i see it as "This is the shit we have to put up with, because humans are too fucked up to be trusted."

Oh my fucking thor, NOBODY is saying you have to view his vile bullshit in a positive light. You don't defend unpopular speech for them, you do it for the long term to PROTECT WHAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO SAY.

Please remember this as an ATHEIST, we are not well liked in America. Do you really want our government, which is now a majority of GOP and a lopsided gerrymandered system to give right wing Christians more power? This is what is going to happen if you keep that PC shit up. THEY are going to turn around and say, "Well if I cant say this, then you cant say that". Guess who will lose long term, YOU!

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The job of the police is to serve and protect, even if they fucking disagree with the people they're serving and protecting.  Plain and Fucking Simple.  They don't get to choose who they protect and serve, and they damn well shouldn't.

I'm surprised that Police haven't felt 'intimidated' by WBC members carrying Signs, thinking they were knives, and shot a few of them though.  Maybe if they were black or asian.

^^^^^^^^ SOOOOO MUCH THIS

In a civil society, our doctors, teachers, law enforcement and first responders, while they may have their own personal views, on the clock they do not get to decide for everyone whom they serve. 

As an atheist, I don't want a cop or doctor going, "I am not going to help you because I don't like what you believe". As much as I hate WBC, if I saw one of their members in a car accident, I wouldn't leave them to die, I would call 911, not because I like them, but because that is what I would want for myself.

Government employees, especially those whom are paid to protect you don't get and should not get to decide whom they serve. Governments that have institutions that play favorites to one sect of a population over all others are very oppressive places to live under, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran or North Korea.

If I got saved by a cop who was a right wing baptist, I would not give a fuck. If I got saved by a Muslim doctor, again, I would not give a fuck. As long as the person is keeping their politics out of the job, that is what matters to me in my moment of need.

[chimp3]

The people of WBC will be dead someday. If we limit free speech due to them then their corpses win the fight. I want maximum freedoms for my kids and grandkids. Just ignore those sexually frustrated maniacs and soon they will be but unpleasant memories. Like some one's bad farts long ago.