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A secular arguement for the alteration of existing abortion law
#31
RE: A secular arguement for the alteration of existing abortion law
(July 4, 2017 at 10:06 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:
(July 4, 2017 at 8:59 pm)DogmaticDownSouth Wrote:


You brought up medical school, now cardiologist. Why didn't you bring up cardiologist originally? Let me guess, hoping I/we would buy the lie and let you skate. Again, put up or shut up. What school, when graduate, last name, state licensed in. Otherwise it's all bullshit. I keep up with enough neonatology to know the advances you wish were available are not. You claim "not my field so I'm allowed ignorance". You claim to be medical but can't make an informed medical argument. Still calling bullshit. 

And you are talking about abortion, don't try to side step. Where are you getting these 20+ weekers that you/state need to make a choice for if not from abortion? So,.... you want to change abortion.

How do you know when a fetus is viable? Have you developed a test? Hold the phone, a cardiologist who knows nothing about neonatology but knows brain death and has the family in the room when performing resuscitation? Yeah Ethyl, let me clear out all the other nurses and techs and tell you why we're stopping. Pretty dense for a cardiologist. Wait, I know, you're going to say you used the wrong word. I don't think you went into practice based on the ignorance you are demonstrating. I don't even think you went to medical school, maybe didn't graduate high school. 

Fetal viability knowledge comes from attempts to keep alive premature births. 

It's not about body autonomy but who has human rights and when. You want to give a nonviable fetus a human right. Great, you and your supporters contact the court. When you put forward a change to the law then come back. Until then you're wasting time. 

Why should an independent person, or the state, be given the choice of what fetus is salvaged and who does and does not get to decide continuation of life more than the parent? The life you are describing is not sustainable without heroic medicine, lots and lots of it. You want that spent (time, resources, and money) on one life rather than thousands of non fetal lives that could be saved. 

Lets say a pregnant woman comes in and for some reason you/state don't think she will be a good mother. Lets say she went into premature labor because of diet and yet the child is viable. Do you take the child away? Do you sterilize her because you/state know better about her body and abilities than her? Where the hell do you draw the line in the nightmare you'd like to set up? 

And an extension of your position does bring up finances, quality of life and available of care. You address none of that. You sir, are amoral. 

I've heard this same argument here before. Did you have a prior account here?


Alright dipshit, it;s on.. If you want to make personal attacks let's go....
I said medical school becuase THAT'S WHERE I INTERACATED WITH THAT PATIENT are you that fucking dumb? do you NOT know how to become a cardiologist. For someone who claims to be graduate of the class of 1983 University of Nebraska Medical Center -> looked at their site and found the class, NO ONE with your name.. I would ASSUME you know you go to medical school FIRST, then you do residency (3 years  internal medicine) and THEN you do fellowship (3 years of general cardiology). If you don't then your a fucking liar about being in the medical profession.

What is yoiur so called field? As an ADULT CARDIOLOGIST I DON"t READ A FUCKING THING ABOUT NEONATOLOGY. I don't have any fucking overlap in my field. I have enough to keep up with general cardiology, echocariography, nuclear medicine, and congestive heart failure as well as arrythmia, primary prevention, and device therapy. I don't fucking care about advances in pediatric (except when they pertain to my kids) OB GYN, psychiatry, surgery, pathology, radiology, hell even medicine subspecilities unless the OVERLAP with what I am doing. I have enouugh to read and keep up with. PERIOD. IF you were practicing you would know that too, so I definately call bullshit.

I'm talking about abortion BECAUSE IT INTERESTS ME, I have a position and would like to know if that position is logically sound, AS I STATED ON THE ONSET. Who knows my motive better - you or me? Name on piece of evidence that I have stated that I am INSENSERE in my questions.

What do you mean WRONG WORD? CARDIOLOGIST IS THE MY TITLE DUMBASS, Even a basic layman knows that you are so fukcing stupid I think you make shit up just to sound dumb, because I find it hard to believe someone with > 3 neurons could be so dumb.

Brain death is a medical term, I rely on my neurology collegues to tell me they feel that they are brain dead and if so THEN when I talk to the family I will tell them that further care is futile, and ONLY IN THAT SITUATION do I use ABSOLUTE terms, I was VERY clear about that. I never stated I made the diagnosis of brain death, only after the diagnosis has been made. I never said the family was in the room while performing resucitiont. I SPEAK WITH FAMILIES ALL THE FUCKING TIME. I talk about CODE status when the patient ISN'T FUCKING CODING DUMB ASS. If a patient presents late after a prolonged VF arrest and how has a pulse but no neurological function, I ask my neurologiy collegues to se them and if they determine that the patient no longer has evenal stem functions then I talk witht he family and state that revascularization is futile. If they are 90 years old and have an EF<10% and come in in HF, then I talk with the family about considering DNR because IF they arrest then the chance of meaningful recovery is very low based on previous experience, I DON'T JUST FUCKING WITHOLD CARE. ANY ONE WITH EVEN 1 DAY of CLINICAL EXPERIENCE WOULD KNIW THESE THINGS THERE I CALL BULLSHIT ON YOU you postering bogus, piece of smelly anal drippings.
I don't share my personal credentials because my credentials DONT MATTER TO MY MORAL ARGUMENT> MY arguemtent stands or falls wehter I'm a cardiologist, neonatologist, pulmonologist, janitor, drug dealer, line cook, or politician.

You don't seem to know the definition of a CONVERSATION. As I STATED on the onset, I'm here to DISCUSS, not Dictate, so why do you keep going back to go to the court and force your opinoin.

Not a single one of your attacks has been AT THE ARGUMENT I HAVE PROPOSED. I can only suppose you are either TOO stupid to understand it or unable to critique it. May be you are a surgeon then.

There is no sharp limit of development, age, or weight at which a human fetus automatically becomes viable.[1] According to studies between 2003 and 2005, 20 to 35 percent of babies born at 23 weeks of gestation survive, while 50 to 70 percent of babies born at 24 to 25 weeks, and more than 90 percent born at 26 to 27 weeks, survive.[4] It is rare for a baby weighing less than 500 g (17.6 ounces) to survive.[1] A baby's chances for survival increases 3-4% per day between 23 and 24 weeks of gestation and about 2-3% per day between 24 and 26 weeks of gestation.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability

You have an N>0 percentage chance for surivival. PERIOD dumbass

I will agree that I am amoral on the question of finances and suitability for parenting.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/amoral:::  not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.

Our society has dictated that we al lhave a right to procreate, even though I agree some do a better job then others. I have not proposed a metric to test if a person is fit to be a parent, so why are you arguing that I have. I have not proposed a metric to state a person needs a certain income to be a parent, why are proposing that I have?

Can you address on STEP of the argument that I proposed? I have yet to hear anything other than you don't like the conclusion, address the argument dumbass.

I may have posted here before, don't remember, if I did ti was a while ago. I have more important things in my life ,but occasisinally when I have some down time I do like to engage in these discussions to help with my own growth. I've posted on a few forums in the past, this may or may not be one, honestly don'r remember. I NEVER CLAIMED I HADN'T THOUGH. is there are rule against posting here?
You lack intellectual honestly and much of your statements make me believe that you lack honesty in general.

Moderator Notice
Quote fixed. Please be careful not to put your response in a quote of someone else. Thank you
Reply
#32
RE: A secular arguement for the alteration of existing abortion law
A woman's body, a woman's choice.

That is about as invested as I will get in this subject.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
Reply
#33
RE: A secular arguement for the alteration of existing abortion law
(July 4, 2017 at 8:59 pm)DogmaticDownSouth Wrote: @ Losty – 1)You haven’t read my post nor addressed my argument. 2)Read above and try again.

1) correct
2) no

**quote slightly altered by me
(August 21, 2017 at 11:31 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: "I'm not a troll"
Religious Views: He gay

0/10

Hammy Wrote:and we also have a sheep on our bed underneath as well
Reply
#34
RE: A secular arguement for the alteration of existing abortion law
Someone mentioned cardiologist?
Dying to live, living to die.
Reply
#35
RE: A secular arguement for the alteration of existing abortion law
(July 4, 2017 at 10:53 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: A woman's body, a woman's choice.

That is about as invested as I will get in this subject.

Not related to anything I said Why are you here?

(July 4, 2017 at 10:53 pm)Losty Wrote:
(July 4, 2017 at 8:59 pm)DogmaticDownSouth Wrote: @ Losty – 1)You haven’t read my post nor addressed my argument. 2)Read above and try again.

1) correct
2) no

**quote slightly altered by me

Then why are you commenting?
Do think iit is intellectually honest to critize an argument you havent read? how about a movie you havn't seen or a song you haven't heard?
You can do what you want, but I will call you out on intellectual dishonesty.
Reply
#36
RE: A secular arguement for the alteration of existing abortion law
(July 4, 2017 at 11:19 pm)DogmaticDownSouth Wrote: Not related to anything I said Why are you here?

Bitch, of the three threads you have on this subject, only one of those contains an actual question.

This thread right here, there's not a single question presented in the original post.

Go fuck yourself.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
Reply
#37
RE: A secular arguement for the alteration of existing abortion law
(July 4, 2017 at 11:19 pm)DogmaticDownSouth Wrote:
(July 4, 2017 at 10:53 pm)Losty Wrote: 1) correct
2) no

**quote slightly altered by me

Then why are you commenting?
Do think iit is intellectually honest to critize an argument you havent read? how about a movie you havn't seen or a song you haven't heard?
You can do what you want, but I will call you out on intellectual dishonesty.

I commented because I had an opinion at least vaguely related to the thread topic and I felt like sharing, a right I have as a member of this forum.

Do you think it's honest of you to accuse me of criticizing your argument when we both know damn well that I never even addressed your argument?
(August 21, 2017 at 11:31 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: "I'm not a troll"
Religious Views: He gay

0/10

Hammy Wrote:and we also have a sheep on our bed underneath as well
Reply
#38
RE: A secular arguement for the alteration of existing abortion law
(July 4, 2017 at 11:28 pm)Losty Wrote:
(July 4, 2017 at 11:19 pm)DogmaticDownSouth Wrote: Then why are you commenting?
Do think iit is intellectually honest to critize an argument you havent read? how about a movie you havn't seen or a song you haven't heard?
You can do what you want, but I will call you out on intellectual dishonesty.

I commented because I had an opinion at least vaguely related to the thread topic and I felt like sharing, a right I have as a member of this forum.

Do you think it's honest of you to accuse me of criticizing your argument when we both know damn well that I never even addressed your argument?

True, you freely admitted you didn't read my arguement.
I nevere said you didn't have a right to coment, if you actually read my posts you would see that I have repeatedly ASKED people (and clearly stated that I cannot order) to comment on what I said

If not intellectually honest then certainly offensive. If you were in an live conversation and some stated I haven't listened to what you said but I think your asking the wrong questions then do you think that it's intellectually dishonest and offenssive? that was your exact quote by the way - I think your asking the wrong question -> If you haven't read my thread then how do you know what question I'm asking?

I did see that you support a woman having the right to abort a fetus at anytime for anyreason, so I must assume that you (we EACH have our own moral compass, a woman may choose to abort a fetus even if she feels it morally wrong) feel that this action is morally permissible? My question was to each of you, which way does YOUR moral compass point?
And where could that needle lead.

As I have stated repeately if you believe that it is morally permissible to abort a viable fetus mere moments from delivery for any reason (no matter if this happens all the time, rarely, or not at all) then you are logically consistent. If you don't then you should acknowlege that bodily autonomy is not absolute. If you have read my acutal posts this is the question I was asking.

Again if you have no problem with that scenerio then you are logically and morally consistent. I would morally disagree with you, but that is my right and yours. There is no arbitrator of morality, only action (the law).
Reply
#39
RE: A secular arguement for the alteration of existing abortion law
Again I didn't read your whole post. (How do you find the energy to make these long winded posts?)

But I am entirely certain I did not say "your asking the wrong question" o_O

I've said this a few times, though it might be in different threads, I think abortion is morally permissible at any stage in pregnancy.
(August 21, 2017 at 11:31 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: "I'm not a troll"
Religious Views: He gay

0/10

Hammy Wrote:and we also have a sheep on our bed underneath as well
Reply
#40
RE: A secular arguement for the alteration of existing abortion law
(July 4, 2017 at 10:48 pm)DogmaticDownSouth Wrote:
(July 4, 2017 at 10:06 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: You brought up medical school, now cardiologist. Why didn't you bring up cardiologist originally? Let me guess, hoping I/we would buy the lie and let you skate. Again, put up or shut up. What school, when graduate, last name, state licensed in. Otherwise it's all bullshit. I keep up with enough neonatology to know the advances you wish were available are not. You claim "not my field so I'm allowed ignorance". You claim to be medical but can't make an informed medical argument. Still calling bullshit. 

And you are talking about abortion, don't try to side step. Where are you getting these 20+ weekers that you/state need to make a choice for if not from abortion? So,.... you want to change abortion.

How do you know when a fetus is viable? Have you developed a test? Hold the phone, a cardiologist who knows nothing about neonatology but knows brain death and has the family in the room when performing resuscitation? Yeah Ethyl, let me clear out all the other nurses and techs and tell you why we're stopping. Pretty dense for a cardiologist. Wait, I know, you're going to say you used the wrong word. I don't think you went into practice based on the ignorance you are demonstrating. I don't even think you went to medical school, maybe didn't graduate high school. 

Fetal viability knowledge comes from attempts to keep alive premature births. 

It's not about body autonomy but who has human rights and when. You want to give a nonviable fetus a human right. Great, you and your supporters contact the court. When you put forward a change to the law then come back. Until then you're wasting time. 

Why should an independent person, or the state, be given the choice of what fetus is salvaged and who does and does not get to decide continuation of life more than the parent? The life you are describing is not sustainable without heroic medicine, lots and lots of it. You want that spent (time, resources, and money) on one life rather than thousands of non fetal lives that could be saved. 

Lets say a pregnant woman comes in and for some reason you/state don't think she will be a good mother. Lets say she went into premature labor because of diet and yet the child is viable. Do you take the child away? Do you sterilize her because you/state know better about her body and abilities than her? Where the hell do you draw the line in the nightmare you'd like to set up? 

And an extension of your position does bring up finances, quality of life and available of care. You address none of that. You sir, are amoral. 

I've heard this same argument here before. Did you have a prior account here?


Alright dipshit, it;s on.. If you want to make personal attacks let's go....
I said medical school becuase THAT'S WHERE I INTERACATED WITH THAT PATIENT are you that fucking dumb? do you NOT know how to become a cardiologist. For someone who claims to be graduate of the class of 1983 University of Nebraska Medical Center -> looked at their site and found the class, NO ONE with your name.. I would ASSUME you know you go to medical school FIRST, then you do residency (3 years  internal medicine) and THEN you do fellowship (3 years of general cardiology). If you don't then your a fucking liar about being in the medical profession.

What is yoiur so called field? As an ADULT CARDIOLOGIST I DON"t READ A FUCKING THING ABOUT NEONATOLOGY. I don't have any fucking overlap in my field. I have enough to keep up with general cardiology, echocariography, nuclear medicine, and congestive heart failure as well as arrythmia, primary prevention, and device therapy. I don't fucking care about advances in pediatric (except when they pertain to my kids) OB GYN, psychiatry, surgery, pathology, radiology, hell even medicine subspecilities unless the OVERLAP with what I am doing. I have enouugh to read and keep up with. PERIOD. IF you were practicing you would know that too, so I definately call bullshit.

I'm talking about abortion BECAUSE IT INTERESTS ME, I have a position and would like to know if that position is logically sound, AS I STATED ON THE ONSET. Who knows my motive better - you or me? Name on piece of evidence that I have stated that I am INSENSERE in my questions.

What do you mean WRONG WORD? CARDIOLOGIST IS THE MY TITLE DUMBASS, Even a basic layman knows that you are so fukcing stupid I think you make shit up just to sound dumb, because I find it hard to believe someone with > 3 neurons could be so dumb.

Brain death is a medical term, I rely on my neurology collegues to tell me they feel that they are brain dead and if so THEN when I talk to the family I will tell them that further care is futile, and ONLY IN THAT SITUATION do I use ABSOLUTE terms, I was VERY clear about that. I never stated I made the diagnosis of brain death, only after the diagnosis has been made. I never said the family was in the room while performing resucitiont. I SPEAK WITH FAMILIES ALL THE FUCKING TIME. I talk about CODE status when the patient ISN'T FUCKING CODING DUMB ASS. If a patient presents late after a prolonged VF arrest and how has a pulse but no neurological function, I ask my neurologiy collegues to se them and if they determine that the patient no longer has evenal stem functions then I talk witht he family and state that revascularization is futile. If they are 90 years old and have an EF<10% and come in in HF, then I talk with the family about considering DNR because IF they arrest then the chance of meaningful recovery is very low based on previous experience, I DON'T JUST FUCKING WITHOLD CARE. ANY ONE WITH EVEN 1 DAY of CLINICAL EXPERIENCE WOULD KNIW THESE THINGS THERE I CALL BULLSHIT ON YOU you postering bogus, piece of smelly anal drippings.
I don't share my personal credentials because my credentials DONT MATTER TO MY MORAL ARGUMENT> MY arguemtent stands or falls wehter I'm a cardiologist, neonatologist, pulmonologist, janitor, drug dealer, line cook, or politician.

You don't seem to know the definition of a CONVERSATION. As I STATED on the onset, I'm here to DISCUSS, not Dictate, so why do you keep going back to go to the court and force your opinoin.

Not a single one of your attacks has been AT THE ARGUMENT I HAVE PROPOSED. I can only suppose you are either TOO stupid to understand it or unable to critique it. May be you are a surgeon then.

There is no sharp limit of development, age, or weight at which a human fetus automatically becomes viable.[1] According to studies between 2003 and 2005, 20 to 35 percent of babies born at 23 weeks of gestation survive, while 50 to 70 percent of babies born at 24 to 25 weeks, and more than 90 percent born at 26 to 27 weeks, survive.[4] It is rare for a baby weighing less than 500 g (17.6 ounces) to survive.[1] A baby's chances for survival increases 3-4% per day between 23 and 24 weeks of gestation and about 2-3% per day between 24 and 26 weeks of gestation.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability

You have an N>0 percentage chance for surivival. PERIOD dumbass

I will agree that I am amoral on the question of finances and suitability for parenting.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/amoral:::  not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.

Our society has dictated that we al lhave a right to procreate, even though I agree some do a better job then others. I have not proposed a metric to test if a person is fit to be a parent, so why are you arguing that I have. I have not proposed a metric to state a person needs a certain income to be a parent, why are proposing that I have?

Can you address on STEP of the argument that I proposed? I have yet to hear anything other than you don't like the conclusion, address the argument dumbass.

I may have posted here before, don't remember, if I did ti was a while ago. I have more important things in my life ,but occasisinally when I have some down time I do like to engage in these discussions to help with my own growth. I've posted on a few forums in the past, this may or may not be one, honestly don'r remember. I NEVER CLAIMED I HADN'T THOUGH. is there are rule against posting here?
You lack intellectual honestly and much of your statements make me believe that you lack honesty in general.

Moderator Notice
Quote fixed. Please be careful not to put your response in a quote of someone else. Thank you

I do!

*Puts hand up*

Me!  Choose me!!

Though, technically, I'm a cardio-thoracic surgeon with a minor specialty in emergency medicine.
Dying to live, living to die.
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