Forgeries in the NT

[Fr33Th1nker]

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FT...You didn't even make it two threads without revealing you're totally full of shit. See what I was talking about? You cannot possibly be honest and hold the position you do. When confronted with, admittedly the most embarrassing sort of proof that your claim about the bible is completely wrong, you erect a straw man rather than acknowledge the validity of the opposition's argument. That doesn't jive with the claim that you're trying to evaluate whether you have good reasons for believing what you do. I'm sorry, but you've fallen into the trap and you've convinced yourself you're above the pale, and you're really, really not. Want to dispute this? I don't think you can. It's utterly hypocritical to criticize other theists for not admitting being wrong or not having an answer and not doing so yourself when it's shoved in your face.

Have you read the book of Psalms? Wisdom? Etc?  Do you expect a book of wisdom to have all sentences written in it to be wise? Seriously, you are sounding like a fundamentalist. Anyway, I'm tired. I'm sorry if I won't be able to stay any longer to discuss things with you. However, I do appreciate the time that you spent enlightening me. That could never be replaced. I'll reach out to you again tomorrow, if it's ok with you. =)

[Astonished]

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FT...You didn't even make it two threads without revealing you're totally full of shit. See what I was talking about? You cannot possibly be honest and hold the position you do. When confronted with, admittedly the most embarrassing sort of proof that your claim about the bible is completely wrong, you erect a straw man rather than acknowledge the validity of the opposition's argument. That doesn't jive with the claim that you're trying to evaluate whether you have good reasons for believing what you do. I'm sorry, but you've fallen into the trap and you've convinced yourself you're above the pale, and you're really, really not. Want to dispute this? I don't think you can. It's utterly hypocritical to criticize other theists for not admitting being wrong or not having an answer and not doing so yourself when it's shoved in your face.

Have you read the book of Psalms? Wisdom? Etc?  Do you expect a book of wisdom to have all sentences written in it to be wise?

Does the incredible amount (and tremendous degree of) idiocy not cancel out what little wisdom can be found? If I'm going to take something seriously, I don't want it to have a shitty ratio of good ideas to bad ones. If the wisdom in there is so simple a child could come across it without having to be directly taught, is that really wisdom? If the wisdom is plagiarized from somewhere else, can the plagiarist legitimately claim credit for it? If the wisdom is founded on shitty justifications, is it really wisdom (sort of the equivalent of guessing right on a multiple-choice question purely by accident)? If the rate of finding wisdom is like finding a handful of different-colored grains of sand in a desert, is that even a good method for looking for wisdom? You don't have a damn leg to stand on. Fuck YES I expect a book OF wisdom to be wise in virtually everything it says. A book that contains 'single-digit % wisdom, but mostly filler' does not deserve to be called a book of wisdom. You're once again allowing your confirmation bias to color your view on the thing. If you sincerely don't want to fall into the trappings of other theists' gullibility, then STOP.

Please, PLEASE start actually thinking. I want to have at least one decent conversationalist on the theist side while I'm on this site.

[Fr33Th1nker]

Honestly, I am a bit disappointed with your comment. I never expected something like this coming from an atheist. Your reply is in league with a bible fundamentalist. You are no different than the Bible thumping, self righteous Christians who you abhor so much.  Read the entire chapter and use your analytical and critical thinking. Then tell me what it really means. 

Seriously, you encounter someone who claims that he believes in God and all reason, logic and decorum flies out of the window. You definitely are a good example of a crtitical, free thinking and open minded atheist. I submit to your superiority and intellect.

Why?  You're the one who thinks there is something to that holy horseshit.

2 Kings 18:27King James Version (KJV)
27 But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

Are you ashamed of your own fucking book?

Oh my, who said that it is my book? For a critical and free thinker, you assume too much. What happened to scientific approach or investigation? You haven't asked me anything and now you are assuming that it is my book? Is that the reason why you are quoting the Bible to me?  LOL! This is the best joke I have ever heard today.

Anyway, I already told a friend here (actually, it is one sided as he does not consider me as his friend) that I need to rest. If it is ok with you, we could continue this discussion again tomorrow. Maybe you would want to ask what my views are just to have an idea on what to talk about. Enjoy your day.

[Fr33Th1nker]

The Bible is a book of wisdom, not a book of facts. The Bible is a book of compiled books arranged by men who were are at one point or another depending on the period of history, either holy, sinners, frauds, fair, smart, dumb, adulterer, etc. Thus, the Bible is corrupted and written and compiled according to the whim and advantage of ruling religious clan, family, group or sect.

There is no point arguing this with most, if not all theist as they are blinded by their ignorance, arrogance and pride. They will always say "Divinely Inspired", "God moves in mysterious ways", and "God has a plan" instead of saying the right thing to say like "I am sorry, you are right" or "I am sorry, I do not know the answer". If I erase the Bible or any "Holy" book from man's memory and history, they will not have the belief that God exists. This is my own opinion being a believer because I have seen it and experienced it.

If you identify as a Christian (still waiting for that intro thread  ), I wonder how you interpret the Jesus-quote that goes something like "I am the way".  Most churchy folks seem to think he literally is a bridge for everyone else to cross over into God's favor without a lot of bother or pain.  But I think a free thinker could read that as meaning he should be followed for his example of personal transcendence, implying a lot more self reliance than most folks who call themselves Christians want to hear about.  

I think there is also a Jesus-quote that goes something like "I and the father are one".  (I am admittedly very unacquainted with the bible except for a for a few stray bits I hear others mention.)  Your garden variety Christian probably hears that and thinks, God and Jesus are entirely different than they themselves are and use it to justify debasing themselves and humankind generally.  But I think a free thinking bible-raised person might hear it differently.  It could just mean "I'm channeling God" with the take away being ".. and so can you".  Of course 'God' as a literal creator of everything who runs the world's best after-life amusement park, makes no sense at all.  But 'God' as a dimensions of human experience not residing under our direct control, that interpretation might hunt.

I think i may have made a double post in error. sorry.

[Minimalist]

Does the incredible amount (and tremendous degree of) idiocy not cancel out what little wisdom can be found?

Yup.

[Fr33Th1nker]

Does the incredible amount (and tremendous degree of) idiocy not cancel out what little wisdom can be found?

Do you want to make that question more quantifiable? Here's what, why don't you read the Bible and open up an excel sheet. Make two columns. On the left column put a header saying Shitty Stuff and on the right column put a header saying Not so Shitty stuff. Until such time that you could present me with validated data, there is no point in arguing if the incredible amount of idiocy not cancel out what little wisdom could be found as it would just be your word against my word. Shouldn't you know that this is the proper way to dispute something? By the way, have you read the entire Bible? If yes, Kudos to you 'coz I have not which imakes it all the more for you to quantify your claims to me before you even pose it as a question.

I'm really tired and need to rest. I don't want to be rude but I really have to go. I'll probably reach out to you same time tomorrow. Thank you. 

[Minimalist]

I think you need to go take your meds.

[Fr33Th1nker]

The Bible is a book of wisdom, not a book of facts. The Bible is a book of compiled books arranged by men who were are at one point or another depending on the period of history, either holy, sinners, frauds, fair, smart, dumb, adulterer, etc. Thus, the Bible is corrupted and written and compiled according to the whim and advantage of ruling religious clan, family, group or sect.

There is no point arguing this with most, if not all theist as they are blinded by their ignorance, arrogance and pride. They will always say "Divinely Inspired", "God moves in mysterious ways", and "God has a plan" instead of saying the right thing to say like "I am sorry, you are right" or "I am sorry, I do not know the answer". If I erase the Bible or any "Holy" book from man's memory and history, they will not have the belief that God exists. This is my own opinion being a believer because I have seen it and experienced it.

If you identify as a Christian (still waiting for that intro thread  ), I wonder how you interpret the Jesus-quote that goes something like "I am the way".  Most churchy folks seem to think he literally is a bridge for everyone else to cross over into God's favor without a lot of bother or pain.  But I think a free thinker could read that as meaning he should be followed for his example of personal transcendence, implying a lot more self reliance than most folks who call themselves Christians want to hear about.  

I think there is also a Jesus-quote that goes something like "I and the father are one".  (I am admittedly very unacquainted with the bible except for a for a few stray bits I hear others mention.)  Your garden variety Christian probably hears that and thinks, God and Jesus are entirely different than they themselves are and use it to justify debasing themselves and humankind generally.  But I think a free thinking bible-raised person might hear it differently.  It could just mean "I'm channeling God" with the take away being ".. and so can you".  Of course 'God' as a literal creator of everything who runs the world's best after-life amusement park, makes no sense at all.  But 'God' as a dimensions of human experience not residing under our direct control, that interpretation might hunt.

I believe in God, an omnipotent and omniscient Being or entity that initiated everything. I don't believe that Jesus is God or the son of God hence I don't care about the Jesus quote or need to waste my time pondering on something that has already been established as fallacy. Most of the Old Testament are myths or folklore. And to use the Bible as reference as to how we should live our lives in the 21st Century or how the universe was created is absurd. The people and culture back then are light years away from the people, culture and lifestyle of people these days. When I said that the Bible is a book of Wisdom and not facts, I meant that there are stories, insights and reference that we could learn from. 

As for the statement, you should understand that back then, times where very different. No one has the guts to say something like "I and the Father are One" or I am the son of God. So imagine what the masses have felt when a human made this declaration. Thus a generation of religious slaves were born passing this slave mentality from one generation to another. Sorry but that is my insight.

[RoadRunner79]

Ok.... so your peculiar reference to contradictions in these would seem to make less since as an atheist.  Under any normal circumstance, as I argued before, I don't think there is any contradiction (unless you add an argument from silence which is unwarranted and unusual).

Do you think you place odd expectations here... some kind of reverse atheist fundamentalism?

How... is an argument from silence unwarranted or unusual?

As I explained, depending on the focus, intent, or whatever other factors, a speakers choice to expand or contract information is not all that unusual.  Just because someone  only mentions or focuses on one person, while another person includes others in their account, does not make it a contradiction.  Only mentioning one person does not exclude others, unless it is explicitly specified.  So that there definitely not a contradiction, and I don't see the a problem. 

Now an argument from silence, I would imagine would be something like, this person wasn't mentioned, therefore the speaker didn't know about any others.  This is possible, especially if the one telling you wasn't there (but really doesn't matter in the information being conveyed).    However, the assumption that because it wasn't mentioned it was unknown is unwarranted in this case I believe and ignores usual aspects of communications.

[Minimalist]

I understand you raging desire to save your silly godboy from the dustbin of history.

However, there is absolutely no evidence that fucking allah split the moon in two.  Therefore, using your absurd reasoning, you must conclude that he did because some muslim wrote it down in an old fucking book.

There is no evidence that Zeus fathered Apollo and Artemis by shagging their human mother Leto.  But because some Greek wrote it down you must also insist that it is true.

There is no evidence that Quetlcoatl descended into Mitclan to gather the bones of the ancient dead.  Do you believe that also.


You are a champion of speclal pleading, RR.  You think your bullshit is real and every other claim is false.