Forgeries in the NT

[RoadRunner79]

I understand you raging desire to save your silly godboy from the dustbin of history.

However, there is absolutely no evidence that fucking allah split the moon in two.  Therefore, using your absurd reasoning, you must conclude that he did because some muslim wrote it down in an old fucking book.

There is no evidence that Zeus fathered Apollo and Artemis by shagging their human mother Leto.  But because some Greek wrote it down you must also insist that it is true.

There is no evidence that Quetlcoatl descended into Mitclan to gather the bones of the ancient dead.  Do you believe that also.


You are a champion of speclal pleading, RR.  You think your bullshit is real and every other claim is false.

Well, I didn't comment about anything remotely related to any of that.  And I think that your assessment, where ever you got it from is incorrect.  Further, I don't think you could accurately portray my position, with such a black and white mentality.  And you should be able to do so, or better yet not only be able to repeat but understand it, before making judgment. 

I was just talking about a supposed contradiction, in a couple of references, and why I don't think these arguments are that good.  If there was special pleading in what I said, feel free to point it out.  However I don't believe that this thing you are imagining is accurate or follows from anything I have said.

[Minimalist]

Well, I didn't comment about anything remotely related to any of that.

Yes, that is precisely the point.  You are CERTAIN that your bullshit is true and resist comparisons with other people's bullshit.

There is more in the world than your silly religion.  You had best learn that.  And none of it is true.

[Astonished]

If you identify as a Christian (still waiting for that intro thread  ), I wonder how you interpret the Jesus-quote that goes something like "I am the way".  Most churchy folks seem to think he literally is a bridge for everyone else to cross over into God's favor without a lot of bother or pain.  But I think a free thinker could read that as meaning he should be followed for his example of personal transcendence, implying a lot more self reliance than most folks who call themselves Christians want to hear about.  

I think there is also a Jesus-quote that goes something like "I and the father are one".  (I am admittedly very unacquainted with the bible except for a for a few stray bits I hear others mention.)  Your garden variety Christian probably hears that and thinks, God and Jesus are entirely different than they themselves are and use it to justify debasing themselves and humankind generally.  But I think a free thinking bible-raised person might hear it differently.  It could just mean "I'm channeling God" with the take away being ".. and so can you".  Of course 'God' as a literal creator of everything who runs the world's best after-life amusement park, makes no sense at all.  But 'God' as a dimensions of human experience not residing under our direct control, that interpretation might hunt.

I believe in God, an omnipotent and omniscient Being or entity that initiated everything. I don't believe that Jesus is God or the son of God hence I don't care about the Jesus quote or need to waste my time pondering on something that has already been established as fallacy. Most of the Old Testament are myths or folklore. And to use the Bible as reference as to how we should live our lives in the 21st Century or how the universe was created is absurd. The people and culture back then are light years away from the people, culture and lifestyle of people these days. When I said that the Bible is a book of Wisdom and not facts, I meant that there are stories, insights and reference that we could learn from. 

As for the statement, you should understand that back then, times where very different. No one has the guts to say something like "I and the Father are One" or I am the son of God. So imagine what the masses have felt when a human made this declaration. Thus a generation of religious slaves were born passing this slave mentality from one generation to another. Sorry but that is my insight.

Okay, fine. What the fuck ever. Let's start there, no other assumptions. What evidence do you have to support this position? Why do you ascribe more than one characteristic to this god beyond its mere existence? Why credit it with omnipotence and omniscience and initiating all that there is? Not a goddamn thing logically follows here. You're making unsupported assumptions and that's still a really dumb thing to be doing in this enlightened age; If you had any evidence, no one would be atheists, at best we'd all be deists. You're still delusional, perhaps with a modicum more control than most of the more established religions, but that you've even opened the door to batshittery merits zero respect. Although you giving any credence to anything positive about the bible and all the atrocities laid at its feet doesn't speak highly about your judgment or intelligence.

[Minimalist]

Into this maelstrom of attack and counterattack, some Christian
authors introduced the weapons of literary forgery. The ultimate
goal of the church was to establish itself as true and, of
course, to show that all other religions were, as a consequence,
false. So once more we have one of the great ironies of the early
Christian religion: some of its leading spokespersons appear to
have had no qualms about lying in order to promote the faith, to
practice deception in order to establish the truth.


Bart Ehrman - Forged  pg 198

Xtians were never above lying about their bullshit.  Some things never change.

[Whateverist]

If you identify as a Christian (still waiting for that intro thread  ), I wonder how you interpret the Jesus-quote that goes something like "I am the way".  Most churchy folks seem to think he literally is a bridge for everyone else to cross over into God's favor without a lot of bother or pain.  But I think a free thinker could read that as meaning he should be followed for his example of personal transcendence, implying a lot more self reliance than most folks who call themselves Christians want to hear about.  

I think there is also a Jesus-quote that goes something like "I and the father are one".  (I am admittedly very unacquainted with the bible except for a for a few stray bits I hear others mention.)  Your garden variety Christian probably hears that and thinks, God and Jesus are entirely different than they themselves are and use it to justify debasing themselves and humankind generally.  But I think a free thinking bible-raised person might hear it differently.  It could just mean "I'm channeling God" with the take away being ".. and so can you".  Of course 'God' as a literal creator of everything who runs the world's best after-life amusement park, makes no sense at all.  But 'God' as a dimensions of human experience not residing under our direct control, that interpretation might hunt.

I believe in God, an omnipotent and omniscient Being or entity that initiated everything. I don't believe that Jesus is God or the son of God hence I don't care about the Jesus quote or need to waste my time pondering on something that has already been established as fallacy. Most of the Old Testament are myths or folklore. And to use the Bible as reference as to how we should live our lives in the 21st Century or how the universe was created is absurd. The people and culture back then are light years away from the people, culture and lifestyle of people these days. When I said that the Bible is a book of Wisdom and not facts, I meant that there are stories, insights and reference that we could learn from. 

As for the statement, you should understand that back then, times where very different. No one has the guts to say something like "I and the Father are One" or I am the son of God. So imagine what the masses have felt when a human made this declaration. Thus a generation of religious slaves were born passing this slave mentality from one generation to another. Sorry but that is my insight.

Good that simplifies matters tremendously.  So forget messiahs and the bible (at least as a reference book).  So that just leaves your idea of God or 'god'.  I wonder if you can say where your notion of it comes from?  Is it a hold over from what I assume must be your Christian beginnings?  Gods come in a variety of forms and perform a variety of functions.  Could you elaborate what defines your God?

[Minimalist]

This should be entertaining.

[Astonished]

My question went a bit above and beyond that, but I don't mind if he answers Whateverist's instead.

[The Grand Nudger]

Plenty of people, in that time, before that time, and since that time -whenever that time is supposed to have been, have claimed to be gods or the sons of gods.  We all know that this is rank bullshit - because there's only one god - and the only thing he does is throw himself into the sun daily to keep it burning with his beating heart.

[Astonished]

Weren't all Egyptian Pharaohs some kind of more-than-human semi-deities? And the Japanese viewed their Emperors in that same kind of way? What the fuck is with Xtians trying to always claim to be unique in some way?

[Minimalist]

They are stupid.