Testimony is Evidence

[LadyForCamus]

Isn't it more your position to separate them out?  Also I was talking about general principles concerning testimony. And if you are saying that there are special circumstances which don't follow these principles, then your justification of that is a different topic.  Also, I am having enough difficulty talking about what I created the thread for; without being called dishonest and having my motives questioned.   I don't think this helps.  We had a thread recently on extraordinary claims, and perhaps if you wanted to discuss them, then you should either posted there, or if you would have posted the thread when I invited you to, then you could control what you wanted to talk about.

No.  It's yours.  It became yours when you said you wanted to discuss the value of witness testimony as evidence, yet you refused to talk about its value as it pertains to extraordinary claims.  You have yet to provide a reason for this that makes any sense at all.  There is a difference between testifying that I had cheerios for breakfast, and testifying that my dog grew wings and flew to the moon, and for some reason you think example A is relevant to our discussion but example B is not.  Why is that?

Probably depends on what the testimony is.

lol, I told you what the testimony was.  Just answer the question.  Your distraction tactics are embarrassingly obvious.

A little less formal, but this thread is about the epistemology of testimony.

That's a fair point on the surface, but again, you're using it as a red herring to avoid answering a pointed hypothetical question directed at you, personally.  

I think that the observation of a gremlin either by myself or others (or something that fits that description) is sufficient evidence that it exists.  As to the number... I don't know if there is a absolute value (there are a number of variables), and it depends on the testimony itself, and how good it is.  If I seen it, then a couple of other people to confirm what I saw and not hallucinating; I think would be sufficient (because I can rule out lying at least in myself).  And if there isn't reason against it, a few more from testimony alone.

 
FINALLY.  I appreciate your honesty.  Eye witness testimony is enough to convince RR that gremlins exist.  I'm just gonna let that hang there...

Explains a lot.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think that the observation of a gremlin either by myself or others (or something that fits that description) is sufficient evidence that it exists.  As to the number... I don't know if there is a absolute value (there are a number of variables), and it depends on the testimony itself, and how good it is.  If I seen it, then a couple of other people to confirm what I saw and not hallucinating; I think would be sufficient (because I can rule out lying at least in myself).  And if there isn't reason against it, a few more from testimony alone.

 
FINALLY.  I appreciate your honesty.  Eye witness testimony is enough to convince RR that gremlins exist.  I'm just gonna let that hang there...

Explains a lot.

LOL, I won;t though.

No ones talking about observations, were talking about testimony.  You tell stories about gremlins, others tell stories about gremlins.  How good is the testimony, can we determine by reference to the testimony?  Can we know that you saw it, by reference to the testimony?  Hallucinating...what?  That;s not in the testimony..that would be actual, exterior -evidence- as in, you're a person known to hallucinate.  Reason against it?  Also external to the testimony.  

You can;t even confine yourself, so why should anyone take you seriously here or on any other subject in which you insist that you are satisfied with testimony?  Your every qualifier had nothing to do with testimony and was exterior -to- testimony...instead referring to potential evidence.

The -evidence- at hand suggests that you'd rather make a complete fool out of yourself over the issue of gremlin stories...than admit this thread..and the last, and the one before, have been a farce. I can't even fathom why a person would put themselves in such a position...but even worse, after having put themselves in such a position...choose the gremlin option......? That;s some breath-takingly shameless lying-for-christ you're up to there, amigo.

[Ravenshire]

I just did a quick google search for "criminal cases overturned by testimony." Here are the results. I couldn't find a single example in the first two pages that listed even a single case where new testimony overturned a conviction. Yet there are hundreds of cases where new physical evidence has exonerated those wrongfully accused. How anyone can look at this and not at least question their conviction that testimony is awesome sauce evidence leaves me aghast. Unfortunately, our emotionally invested brick walls will likely ignore all this in favor of maintaining their convenient fiction that testimony is just as good as physical evidence.

[bennyboy]

What specifically on how the thread has unfolded (from me)  makes you think that this is highly implausible to the point where you think I'm lying?   Personally, I think that for many of the atheist who keep trying to force the conversation to be about God, and are so concerned with unspoken motivation; shows that they are more focused and influenced by this than I.  

I've very clearly stated why I think so.

If you want to talk about the value of eye witness testimony.  It has value in that apart from many other forms of evidence (except for maybe video or audio recording), it can tell you a lot more about what happened, not just the results.  Testimony can tell you what was said or what lead up to the event in question.  It can tell you if it was self defense, or who instigated things.  If other people witnessed the event, or where involved.  It can point you to other evidence, that you did not know about, and can tell you about what happened elsewhere.  It can tell you why there is particular physical evidence present which may point you in the wrong direction. It tells you about things that did not leave any physical evidence.   Basically, it may give you a more complete picture, than indirect evidence alone and the inferences that may follow.

Why do you want to talk about this? You've made an OP (not even the first one) and participated for 20 pages. I think at this point, we can assume that you are motivated to discuss the issue. Why? How is it that you have this deep a fascination with witness testimony, but cannot provide an actual example that you think merits consideration?

[LadyForCamus]

 
FINALLY.  I appreciate your honesty.  Eye witness testimony is enough to convince RR that gremlins exist.  I'm just gonna let that hang there...

Explains a lot.

LOL, I won;t though.

No ones talking about observations, were talking about testimony.  You tell stories about gremlins, others tell stories about gremlins.  How good is the testimony, can we determine by reference to the testimony?  Can we know that you saw it, by reference to the testimony?  Hallucinating...what?  That;s not in the testimony..that would be actual, exterior -evidence- as in, you're a person known to hallucinate.  Reason against it?  Also external to the testimony.  

You can;t even confine yourself, so why should anyone take you seriously here or on any other subject in which you insist that you are satisfied with testimony?  Your every qualifier had nothing to do with testimony and was exterior -to- testimony...instead referring to potential evidence.

The -evidence- at hand suggests that you'd rather make a complete fool out of yourself over the issue of gremlin stories...than admit this thread..and the last, and the one before, have been a farce.  I can't even fathom why a person would put themselves in such a position...but even worse, after having put themselves in such a position...choose the gremlin option......?  That;s some breath-takingly shameless lying-for-christ you're up to there, amigo.

Lol, oh man.  I didn't even catch that he snuck in, ''If I observed it myself,' right up front.  

So...in summation, after re-reading without babyCamus on my boob: Only if he, himself was a witness, and moreover, only if there was external, corroborating evidence in addition to my testimony, distinguishing true observation from hallucination, he'd believe it.  

Crash and burn, RR.  Like the last thread. And the thread before it.  Oh yeah...and the thread before that.

Can we be done with eye witness testimony now?

[Ravenshire]

Can we be done with eye witness testimony now?

I'm sure we can. I'm also sure our resident brick walls will try again, with a very slightly different angle, to convince us that testimony is perfectly valid evidence so they can "gotcha" us with biblical "testimony" (otherwise known as hearsay).

[Nay_Sayer]

Can we be done with eye witness testimony now?

I'm sure we can. I'm also sure our resident brick walls will try again, with a very slightly different angle, to convince us that testimony is perfectly valid evidence so they can "gotcha" us with biblical "testimony" (otherwise known as hearsay).

Hey if it was not for the "That thing happened, I swear, Honest" defense being taken seriously we wouldn't have Mormons.

[Astonished]

I'm sure we can. I'm also sure our resident brick walls will try again, with a very slightly different angle, to convince us that testimony is perfectly valid evidence so they can "gotcha" us with biblical "testimony" (otherwise known as hearsay).

Hey if it was not for the "That thing happened, I swear, Honest" defense being taken seriously we wouldn't have Mormons.

Or Muslims.

[RoadRunner79]

I'm going to address this point because it seems to really be bugging you:

I asked the question before, and I don't believe that any one answered,  but if you cannot trust others, and you cannot trust your own perception or memory, then what are you basing your beliefs on.

I do not know, and never have claimed to know, that my beliefs are 100% trustworthy. In point of fact, I showed they can't always be trusted. That is why I read extensively, both fiction and non-fiction. It's why I read articles that both agree and disagree with my held beliefs. It's why I question even the beliefs I hold as axioms. Can you say the same? Do you question your likely axiomatically held christian beliefs? I relish the opportunity to be proven wrong as well as being proven right because both help me to maintain the most truthful beliefs and positions I can.

The question isn't about absolute certainty.  Just the same reasonable certainty, that you require from evidence.  And yes, I can say the same that I question my beliefs, which is why I create threads like this (although I'm sure a number of people will come about and call me a liar).

---

[hide]In the other thread, when I pointed out that DNA evidence can be unreliable (and subjective) it was rightly pointed out, that this is one aspect of DNA; that of when there isn't a clean sample.  In fact the above bulleted arguments can both be made of DNA evidence.  If you google DNA evidence unreliable, you will find a number of articles that discuss this (many are focusing on the rise of technology and touch DNA), and you can also find that people have been falsely convicted because of an over reliance on DNA evidence.  Do your same conclusions follow with DNA evidence?

Here is but one example from a professor on Pshycology & Law  Here

The following observation was noted in a demonstration where DNA evidence mistakenly pointed to a person.

I'm not pitting physical evidence agaisnt witness testimony.  I believe that in any individual case, that either the physical evidence or witness testimony may be more useful in giving you a picture of what occurred.  In one case, physical evidence may outweigh the testimony, and in another, testimony may be greater than the picture the physical evidence paints.  It all depends on the quality of the evidence.

---

As I stated before, I think that you need to show your reasons, why witness testimony and any flaws or shortcoming make testimony as a whole either not evidence or the least form of evidence (or whatever case you are trying to make).  Cherry picking examples does not make a case, and even the site you referenced earlier (for the video) stated that testimony is generally reliable.

As you say, cherry picking doesn't make your case:

When the testimony is obtained and reported right after the event took place, the witness’ memory is still fresh, which means that there is a higher chance that his or her account of the incident is still vivid in his or her mind. This makes his or her testimony more reliable.

Eye witness testimony isn't usually obtained "right after the event took place." It can take hours, days, weeks, even months for witnesses to be found. Further, you're cherry picking of new, not yet perfected technologies and mixed DNA samples undermines your argument more than it supports it. The wonderful thing about DNA testing (and any type of physical testing) is that it can be repeated, by different techs, in different labs at different times, even months, or in extreme cases, years later, by procedures that produce even more reliable results. Testimony (for a variety of reasons) gets more and more unreliable as it ages and cannot be tested (only corroborated). Physical evidence, unless tampered with, doesn't change. Current tests get improved, new tests are developed and the physical evidence is still there, still testable. Testimony can and does change, without any outside tampering. And, speaking of tampering. You've actually used evidence tampering as a reason for you argument in favor of testimony. I do hope you realize that evidence tampering is really no different than giving false testimony. We have to, to a degree, rely on the honesty of the people involved. Unfortunately for your argument, evidence tampering is easier to prove. Tampering with evidence leaves evidence of the tampering. Lying under oath, not so much.
[/hide]

No if they are mistaken or lying, then it doesn't demonstrate the proposition well.

Whether they're mistaken, lying, utterly honest or bat-shit crazy, if their testimony fits with the alleged case then it's demonstrating the proposition. If it demonstrates it convincingly, even if it's untrue, the prosecution (or defense) will use it, juries will hear it and convictions (or acquittals) will be handed out.What I mean, is that if there is reason to believe that they are lying or mistaken, then it doesn't demonstrate their case is true

I'm not pitting physical evidence agaisnt witness testimony.

I'm calling bullshit on this statement. Anyone who believes someone justice can be served when a conviction on a serious charge has been handed down on the basis of testimony alone has dismissed the value of physical evidence.

Now that I've addressed the key points, I'll address one that you just can't seem to get, even though I have clearly stated it more than once.

As I stated before, I think that you need to show your reasons, why witness testimony and any flaws or shortcoming make testimony as a whole either not evidence or the least form of evidence (or whatever case you are trying to make).

I hold the opinion that testimony is only useful as, and should be limited in use and scope as, corroborating evidence. In no uncertain terms, I hold the opinion that no one facing a charge where the sentence would be a Prison (not to be confused with jail) term regardless of severity or in capital cases. You have, quite rightly, shown that physical evidence can be erroneous. What you have not shown is that testimony is as reliable as physical evidence, especially over time. Nor have you shown that errors in physical evidence testing cannot be corrected at a later, sometimes much later date or that errors in testimony can be corrected by further testimony. I hold that it is self evident that the shortcomings of testimony, as have been repeatedly demonstrated to you (no, I'm not going to list them all, again), should prohibit it's use as anything other than corroborating evidence. If the state can't build a case on physical evidence, they should postpone indictment until they can. If they can never build a case on physical evidence... Well, sucks to be them.

You're actually arguing to maintain the status quo in a world moving farther and farther from the time when "the testimony of two reliable witnesses shall be sufficient to convict" in a case of treason and toward a time where testimony will be insufficient to convict on any serious crime. The courts are seeing it, the lawyers are seeing it, the forensic pathologists are seeing it jurors are starting to see it, but you're not. Yeah, I call that emotional investment.

I don't know of any studies that done specifically for the reliability of testimony (although while I don't have the means, I could think of a few examples).   But by looking at the numbers, 351 people have been exonerated by the innocence project the first in 1989[IP] . it is my understanding, that the majority of these are rape and murder charges.  The prison system holds about 169,000 people each for these offenses[2016 Statistics ]  This is what I mean by cherry picking or more correctly anecdotal evidence (in the proper sense).  When someone wants to make a make a case against witness testimony, they often will bring up Jim Bob who was wrongfully convicted, and later released.  However this doesn't tell the whole story.  It can be true, that Jim Bob was wrongfully imprisoned, as well as a number of other people if one does a google search on the topic.  However, the results of your google search only means that it is news, and what people are talking about.  As unfortunate and saddening that it is, that these people where wrongfully convicted a number of which on the basis of testimony.  It doesn't show that testimony is unreliable  For that you would need to know how many of these people currently imprisoned where judged primarily on a basis of testimony as the main anchor for the conviction.   Now if it is 500 of and 351 where wrongfully accused base on testimony, then you certainly have a case.  If it is 25% of the 2016 population (referenced above)  of inmates found guilty based on testimony with 351 shown to be innocent, then I think your case is weakened quite a bit. (I wasn't able to find any reference to convictions with this data and what the primary cause for conviction was) You also have to take into consideration the error that was made.  Now of this number, being  a fraction of the total as it is, those attributed to witness testimony, is a large proportion of the wrongful convictions.  However, if you look closer, a large proportion of this, deals with mis-identification.   If your remove witness identification from this number, (remember, I am very much for the reforms in regard to mis-identification), then the topic of witness testimony, falls in line, with of forensic science errors, authority misconduct, and false confessions.  And stories are just now coming to light, on how DNA evidence is perhaps not as reliable as we assumed. 

So perhaps I am holding on to the "status quo", and I'm not saying that we don't need to be wary or make reforms.  However my experience in business and with politics, is that in such cases, people also tend to over-react, and often not for the better. There are certain issues with memory, and it is not perfect.  And people can lie.   However I believe that through corroborating evidence, that we can mitigate the lies, and that for the most part peoples perception of reality and even their memory of it is generally reliable and useful as evidence.

---

LOL, I won;t though.

No ones talking about observations, were talking about testimony.  You tell stories about gremlins, others tell stories about gremlins.  How good is the testimony, can we determine by reference to the testimony?  Can we know that you saw it, by reference to the testimony?  Hallucinating...what?  That;s not in the testimony..that would be actual, exterior -evidence- as in, you're a person known to hallucinate.  Reason against it?  Also external to the testimony.  

You can;t even confine yourself, so why should anyone take you seriously here or on any other subject in which you insist that you are satisfied with testimony?  Your every qualifier had nothing to do with testimony and was exterior -to- testimony...instead referring to potential evidence.

The -evidence- at hand suggests that you'd rather make a complete fool out of yourself over the issue of gremlin stories...than admit this thread..and the last, and the one before, have been a farce.  I can't even fathom why a person would put themselves in such a position...but even worse, after having put themselves in such a position...choose the gremlin option......?  That;s some breath-takingly shameless lying-for-christ you're up to there, amigo.

Lol, oh man.  I didn't even catch that he snuck in, ''If I observed it myself,' right up front.  

So...in summation, after re-reading without babyCamus on my boob:  Only if he, himself was a witness, and moreover, only if there was external, corroborating evidence in addition to my testimony, distinguishing true observation from hallucination, he'd believe it.  

Crash and burn, RR.  Like the last thread. And the thread before it.  Oh yeah...and the thread before that.

Can we be done with eye witness testimony now?

I think you should re-read that....   I never said only if I see it.  And corroborating evidence could be other testimony. 

And if you have nothing useful to add such as the above, feel free to drop out anytime you like.

[Ravenshire]

---

I'm going to address this point because it seems to really be bugging you:
I do not know, and never have claimed to know, that my beliefs are 100% trustworthy. In point of fact, I showed they can't always be trusted. That is why I read extensively, both fiction and non-fiction. It's why I read articles that both agree and disagree with my held beliefs. It's why I question even the beliefs I hold as axioms. Can you say the same? Do you question your likely axiomatically held christian beliefs? I relish the opportunity to be proven wrong as well as being proven right because both help me to maintain the most truthful beliefs and positions I can.

The question isn't about absolute certainty.  Just the same reasonable certainty, that you require from evidence.  And yes, I can say the same that I question my beliefs, which is why I create threads like this (although I'm sure a number of people will come about and call me a liar).

As you say, cherry picking doesn't make your case:


Eye witness testimony isn't usually obtained "right after the event took place." It can take hours, days, weeks, even months for witnesses to be found. Further, you're cherry picking of new, not yet perfected technologies and mixed DNA samples undermines your argument more than it supports it. The wonderful thing about DNA testing (and any type of physical testing) is that it can be repeated, by different techs, in different labs at different times, even months, or in extreme cases, years later, by procedures that produce even more reliable results. Testimony (for a variety of reasons) gets more and more unreliable as it ages and cannot be tested (only corroborated). Physical evidence, unless tampered with, doesn't change. Current tests get improved, new tests are developed and the physical evidence is still there, still testable. Testimony can and does change, without any outside tampering. And, speaking of tampering. You've actually used evidence tampering as a reason for you argument in favor of testimony. I do hope you realize that evidence tampering is really no different than giving false testimony. We have to, to a degree, rely on the honesty of the people involved. Unfortunately for your argument, evidence tampering is easier to prove. Tampering with evidence leaves evidence of the tampering. Lying under oath, not so much.


Whether they're mistaken, lying, utterly honest or bat-shit crazy, if their testimony fits with the alleged case then it's demonstrating the proposition. If it demonstrates it convincingly, even if it's untrue, the prosecution (or defense) will use it, juries will hear it and convictions (or acquittals) will be handed out.

What I mean, is that if there is reason to believe that they are lying or mistaken, then it doesn't demonstrate their case is true

I'm calling bullshit on this statement. Anyone who believes someone justice can be served when a conviction on a serious charge has been handed down on the basis of testimony alone has dismissed the value of physical evidence.

Now that I've addressed the key points, I'll address one that you just can't seem to get, even though I have clearly stated it more than once.
I hold the opinion that testimony is only useful as, and should be limited in use and scope as, corroborating evidence. In no uncertain terms, I hold the opinion that no one facing a charge where the sentence would be a Prison (not to be confused with jail) term regardless of severity or in capital cases. You have, quite rightly, shown that physical evidence can be erroneous. What you have not shown is that testimony is as reliable as physical evidence, especially over time. Nor have you shown that errors in physical evidence testing cannot be corrected at a later, sometimes much later date or that errors in testimony can be corrected by further testimony. I hold that it is self evident that the shortcomings of testimony, as have been repeatedly demonstrated to you (no, I'm not going to list them all, again), should prohibit it's use as anything other than corroborating evidence. If the state can't build a case on physical evidence, they should postpone indictment until they can. If they can never build a case on physical evidence... Well, sucks to be them.

You're actually arguing to maintain the status quo in a world moving farther and farther from the time when "the testimony of two reliable witnesses shall be sufficient to convict" in a case of treason and toward a time where testimony will be insufficient to convict on any serious crime. The courts are seeing it, the lawyers are seeing it, the forensic pathologists are seeing it jurors are starting to see it, but you're not. Yeah, I call that emotional investment.

---

I don't know of any studies that done specifically for the reliability of testimony (although while I don't have the means, I could think of a few examples).   But by looking at the numbers, 351 people have been exonerated by the innocence project the first in 1989[IP] . it is my understanding, that the majority of these are rape and murder charges.  The prison system holds about 169,000 people each for these offenses[2016 Statistics ]  This is what I mean by cherry picking or more correctly anecdotal evidence (in the proper sense).  When someone wants to make a make a case against witness testimony, they often will bring up Jim Bob who was wrongfully convicted, and later released.  However this doesn't tell the whole story.  It can be true, that Jim Bob was wrongfully imprisoned, as well as a number of other people if one does a google search on the topic.  However, the results of your google search only means that it is news, and what people are talking about.  As unfortunate and saddening that it is, that these people where wrongfully convicted a number of which on the basis of testimony.  It doesn't show that testimony is unreliable  For that you would need to know how many of these people currently imprisoned where judged primarily on a basis of testimony as the main anchor for the conviction.   Now if it is 500 of and 351 where wrongfully accused base on testimony, then you certainly have a case.  If it is 25% of the 2016 population (referenced above)  of inmates found guilty based on testimony with 351 shown to be innocent, then I think your case is weakened quite a bit. (I wasn't able to find any reference to convictions with this data and what the primary cause for conviction was) You also have to take into consideration the error that was made.  Now of this number, being  a fraction of the total as it is, those attributed to witness testimony, is a large proportion of the wrongful convictions.  However, if you look closer, a large proportion of this, deals with mis-identification.   If your remove witness identification from this number, (remember, I am very much for the reforms in regard to mis-identification), then the topic of witness testimony, falls in line, with of forensic science errors, authority misconduct, and false confessions.  And stories are just now coming to light, on how DNA evidence is perhaps not as reliable as we assumed. 

So perhaps I am holding on to the "status quo", and I'm not saying that we don't need to be wary or make reforms.  However my experience in business and with politics, is that in such cases, people also tend to over-react, and often not for the better. There are certain issues with memory, and it is not perfect.  And people can lie.   However I believe that through corroborating evidence, that we can mitigate the lies, and that for the most part peoples perception of reality and even their memory of it is generally reliable and useful as evidence.

Wow, I'm not even going to try to clean up the hash you made of that.

First, you claim I'm cherry picking by posting the available data. Not my fault that the data isn't complete enough for you. After all, what would be enough for you.
Second, you either didn't see or are ignoring the point I made about the convictions overturned. None were overturned due to new testimony. The overwhelming majority were, gotta love this part, especially since it's exactly what you were bitching that I wasn't giving you, convicted on bad, wrong or just plain false testimony and were overturned by the introduction of new physical evidence.

Care to comment on that? After all, it's the testimony sending these poor bastards down the river and the real evidence that's exonerating them.