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(September 22, 2017 at 10:56 am)MysticKnight Wrote:
(September 22, 2017 at 10:51 am)pocaracas Wrote: And that is why you fail.
As long as you bring a human into the business of the supernatural, you're falling head-on into a fallacy.
And to claim that one single special human that lived long ago was the one single unique perfect bridge between all of mankind and the supernatural is to just ask to be called gullible... or even stupid.
It appears foolish perhaps by "common conjecture" of what goodness is, but goodness has always been about connecting to what truly reminds us of God and ourselves, and what others are in truth, and that always been by the family of the reminder of the time because love is to give value to things truthfully and measure them with their proper due.
N.n.n.n.n...n.n.n.n.nn... NO!
That's not what goodness is. Not by a longshot!
Goodness is the property of some action that produces positive results for the majority of actors involved. (here, the word "actors" means any living organism, but mostly refers to people, as we are biased to favor our own species)
Also, love is not what you say!
To love something is to value that thing above all others. You can love a set of things and then that set is valued above all other things. The relations between the things being loved is then dependent on you.
(September 22, 2017 at 10:56 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The beautiful Names of God are the Captains and ways to God, split into twelve branches after the founding Captain, linking back to one root, the name of God is the Captain and the Captain is the Name of God, how else would we be navigated to God but through something that perfectly points to him and indicates who he is? They glorify by the name of God, they glorify by the sanctity of God's blessings in them which unite all blessings in creation, they glorify by the name of God mainly because they are his name, and we ought to glorify by their glorification, try to embrace as much of their light as possible and let them show us the way.
What does this have to do with the above?!
Who cares about the names that people use to call a god?
Names are words.... and we all know that words are wind.
(September 22, 2017 at 10:23 am)MysticKnight Wrote:
(September 21, 2017 at 11:39 pm)Astreja Wrote: That's why I'm an atheist. No religion has a "clear proof." The most that one can hope for is evidence that the founder of the religion was a real person. There is no credible evidence for the existence of any gods. There is no credible evidence for any of the supernatural claims made by various religions. None.
You are atheist because you have not recognized the proof of God.
As far as I am concerned, there is no fucking "proof" for your imaginary friend.
Quote:I recommend the Quran because it centralizes on the issue of "proof".
The Quran is an unsupported claim. It is worthless as evidence, and worthless as proof. It is no more valid than any other scripture, and in fact is no more valid than any other work of fiction.
I reject your beliefs unconditionally, and it is my profound wish that one day your faith fails you and causes you to reject Islam as well.
(September 21, 2017 at 9:02 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: But the question is which God, what God, who is God, how to know that true God and his will and religion, and this is a good question, a question all humans have to focus on not to dismiss religion but rather dismiss all false religion with no proof and follow the true religion that has a clear proof.
That's why I'm an atheist. No religion has a "clear proof." The most that one can hope for is evidence that the founder of the religion was a real person. There is no credible evidence for the existence of any gods. There is no credible evidence for any of the supernatural claims made by various religions. None.
^^^^ THIS ^^^^ Well said. Precisely.
All the word salad MK and other theists try to cook up and spew all over this forum is not proof. There is no book on this planet that qualifies as proof. There is no credible evidence. Now, the moment somebody actually provides credible evidence that is not fantasy woo, I will happily pay attention. But all of this theist arguing that they have "proof" without ever providing anything that could be considered actual evidence - it gets really tiresome. How many thousands of times do we have to say that we need evidence? Personal "religious" revelations, personal "experiences", quotes from books - these are not and never will be evidence.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
September 22, 2017 at 11:38 am (This post was last modified: September 22, 2017 at 11:51 am by Mystic.)
Sometimes I think you guys see all that I see, know what I know, and reminded by what I am reminded of, but then just turn away from the path because it seems hard or scary.
Sometimes I think you guys understand and perceive, but then convince yourself you have reason to turn away from the truth, by merely responding with whatever words you choose to respond by.
Religion can be said to be nothing but defining what it means to be human from one sense of the word, what we ought to value in ourselves and others, what we out to appreciate and follow, etc...
How can the instruction on how to be human be other than a human example? How can it be some algorithm we cannot live up to or something society makes us or something we just play around with to suit our purposes?
They are the way that guide by the truth and by it they do justice, and they after the founding Navigator to the just city the world must come to, are Twelve ways, always, always, always.
Why pollute the pure stream of morality with conjecture and doubts?
A good question is:
"Why a human as the proof/ruler/representative of God".
A better question is how to recognize the proof.
This I believe no book other than Quran explains better.
Who better fit to explain the proof of God and his path, then God himself?
September 22, 2017 at 1:19 pm (This post was last modified: September 22, 2017 at 1:21 pm by WinterHold.)
(September 22, 2017 at 11:38 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Sometimes I think you guys see all that I see, know what I know, and reminded by what I am reminded of, but then just turn away from the path because it seems hard or scary.
Sometimes I think you guys understand and perceive, but then convince yourself you have reason to turn away from the truth, by merely responding with whatever words you choose to respond by.
Religion can be said to be nothing but defining what it means to be human from one sense of the word, what we ought to value in ourselves and others, what we out to appreciate and follow, etc...
How can the instruction on how to be human be other than a human example? How can it be some algorithm we cannot live up to or something society makes us or something we just play around with to suit our purposes?
They are the way that guide by the truth and by it they do justice, and they after the founding Navigator to the just city the world must come to, are Twelve ways, always, always, always.
Why pollute the pure stream of morality with conjecture and doubts?
A good question is:
"Why a human as the proof/ruler/representative of God".
A better question is how to recognize the proof.
This I believe no book other than Quran explains better.
Who better fit to explain the proof of God and his path, then God himself?
You are calling people (including other Muslims) to:
1-Suck the cocks of an ancient clan; and buy into utter loyalty to them
2-For Muslims: you want to convince them that the book they believe mentioned the ancient clan. But the book didn't. It's an atheist forum; I know. But ask the dead "Imams" why other Muslims exist in atheist forums.
For Atheists: you want to convince them that God exists; ignoring the fact that they're atheists by choice, and that probably your God doesn't sound so appealing to them; because frankly -even to me; a Muslim already-, the Shiite Allah is a coward who doesn't know his own creations' future.
3-You advertise for sectarian hate and your disgusting language finally came to the open; which raises so many questions about who your coach Imam is; and whether you support the misery Shiites inflict on the Sunnies in Iraq and Iran. Don't worry; I ask Sunnies the same question concerning the harm their brothers inflict on Shiites in places like Saudi Arabia. To be honest; Sunnies have ISIS, and your clan has Popular Mobilization Forces; you both smell like the inside of a nose, you both commit the worst atrocities to your fellow humans, and you both need a very quick shower.
4-You hide your shitty intentions behind the walls of text you spam the internet with; knowing you're a twelver can only be known from reading the walls you write through the spamming machine in the back of your head. I know that hating Sunnies is what being a Shia is all about, but you finally said it in this post: https://atheistforums.org/thread-51114-p...pid1623364
5-You need a shower.
6-This is not a wall of text. This is a wall of insults.
Yep I forgot to add:
*smiles*
(September 22, 2017 at 11:38 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Sometimes I think you guys see all that I see, know what I know, and reminded by what I am reminded of, but then just turn away from the path because it seems hard or scary.
Sometimes I think you guys understand and perceive, but then convince yourself you have reason to turn away from the truth, by merely responding with whatever words you choose to respond by.
So you accuse us of being cowards and liars and expect us to take you and your beliefs seriously? Not going to happen. You owe all of us an apology.
Quote:How can the instruction on how to be human be other than a human example? How can it be some algorithm we cannot live up to or something society makes us or something we just play around with to suit our purposes?
We are human. We don't need instructions to be what we already are.
What we live up to is a matter of what we want to live up to. Our purposes are every bit as valid as anyone else's purposes, and from the point of view of our own lives they are the most valid for us individually.
Quote:A good question is: "Why a human as the proof/ruler/representative of God".
No, that's a stupid question. First you have to demonstrate that a god exists, using actual physical evidence that points only to a god. Then you have to demonstrate that the god has delegated responsibility to the human. Start with part 1: Run out and get us actual physical evidence for a god. Until you have evidence that is up to our standards (not your standards, which are frightfully low from my POV), you cannot move to part 2.
Quote:A better question is how to recognize the proof.
That's an even more ludicrous question. As a strong agnostic I believe it to be literally impossible to determine with certainty whether something is an actual god. For all you know and for all you can know, the Quran could have been crafted by men, by demons, or by a particularly mischievous telepathic space alien from the Crab Nebula.
(September 22, 2017 at 1:19 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: 6-This is not a wall of text. This is a wall of insults.
(September 22, 2017 at 10:23 am)MysticKnight Wrote:
(September 22, 2017 at 9:19 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: What's the difference between 'enlightened rants' and 'unsupported assertions'?
To the untrained mind, not much, to one searching for wisdom, a huge difference.
(September 21, 2017 at 11:58 pm)Cyberman Wrote:
"What a good question, but it's your fault that I'm not going to answer it."
Wow.
*smiles*
So you guys can understand what I say sometimes.
(September 11, 2017 at 6:56 pm)Khemikal Wrote: If you say the magic words right, a ghost appears.
Particularly a Guide that will show you the way to your Lord and remind of your Lord.
(September 21, 2017 at 11:39 pm)Astreja Wrote: That's why I'm an atheist. No religion has a "clear proof." The most that one can hope for is evidence that the founder of the religion was a real person. There is no credible evidence for the existence of any gods. There is no credible evidence for any of the supernatural claims made by various religions. None.
You are atheist because you have not recognized the proof of God. If you reflected all your life, still, your reflection is not proof there is no proof. To God belongs the reaching proof, and it is up to him to keep it hidden or manifest it.
I recommend the Quran because it centralizes on the issue of "proof". Of course, what the clear proof is not something most people want it to be. They want to be something they own. Something they create and increase themselves. But the proof is a human, not an Angel, not some mystical reality that is not a living being, not a concept in your mind, not some algorithm in your mind, but a human that is a leader that is connected to the Highest sky to the lowest earth, and is door and Captain that will navigate society to justice. It was during Mohammad time him who would recite the Signs, and he is a reminder brought down, an instance of the written reminder in living form.
And if you really think about deeply enough, morality is not a dead concept, but a living reality. It's him the living human, he is God's command, the spirit from his command is him, the light brought down is him, the blessed tree that extends to all is him, and the loving fabrics that all relationships are asked by him, is at the center of it all, him. And the center source of this name and light is God blessing and giving sustenance, connecting to God and connecting others to God.
The name of God is a human leader, was so from the start even when Angels didn't know Mohammad and the family of Mohammad were that since they didn't take on physical form yet, and thought they were better fit than Adam when God created Adam, until they prostrated knowing his superior knowledge of the names, except the dark one Iblis who is a manifest enemy to humanity and is so now.
When you realize what morality is, what good is, what love is, what value is, the link of perception, the justice, honor, and importance of seeking truth and clear proof, and do away with the confusion of the grey muddy lake, it will become clear.
(September 21, 2017 at 11:43 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: This, precisely.
I'm a better person because I DON'T get my morality from a "holy" book.
You get your morality out of your sheer desire of what you want to be, taking from the light of the guide what suits you, and taking from the darkness of the hearts of society was suits you, and mixing it like some delicious cake to eat, but it's filled with evil, filth, and ignorance with pure blessed water.
Indeed you seek to corrupt it rather than perfect your soul by it.
Yeah, I'm so corrupt I've saved numerous lives.
It's your "holy" book and the deity you follow that are corrupt and full of filth and vile teachings.
(September 22, 2017 at 11:38 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Sometimes I think you guys see all that I see, know what I know, and reminded by what I am reminded of, but then just turn away from the path because it seems hard or scary.
Sometimes I think you guys understand and perceive, but then convince yourself you have reason to turn away from the truth, by merely responding with whatever words you choose to respond by.
Religion can be said to be nothing but defining what it means to be human from one sense of the word, what we ought to value in ourselves and others, what we out to appreciate and follow, etc...
How can the instruction on how to be human be other than a human example? How can it be some algorithm we cannot live up to or something society makes us or something we just play around with to suit our purposes?
They are the way that guide by the truth and by it they do justice, and they after the founding Navigator to the just city the world must come to, are Twelve ways, always, always, always.
Why pollute the pure stream of morality with conjecture and doubts?
A good question is:
"Why a human as the proof/ruler/representative of God".
A better question is how to recognize the proof.
This I believe no book other than Quran explains better.
Who better fit to explain the proof of God and his path, then God himself?
I suppose it's easier to assume that atheists just don't want to believe your tripe, rather than admit to yourself that your arguments simply aren't persuasive.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
September 22, 2017 at 3:04 pm (This post was last modified: September 22, 2017 at 3:06 pm by drfuzzy.)
(September 22, 2017 at 11:38 am)MysticKnight Wrote:
Sometimes I think you guys see all that I see, know what I know, and reminded by what I am reminded of, but then just turn away from the path because it seems hard or scary.
Sometimes I think you guys understand and perceive, but then convince yourself you have reason to turn away from the truth, by merely responding with whatever words you choose to respond by.
Religion can be said to be nothing but defining what it means to be human from one sense of the word, what we ought to value in ourselves and others, what we out to appreciate and follow, etc...
How can the instruction on how to be human be other than a human example? How can it be some algorithm we cannot live up to or something society makes us or something we just play around with to suit our purposes?
They are the way that guide by the truth and by it they do justice, and they after the founding Navigator to the just city the world must come to, are Twelve ways, always, always, always.
Why pollute the pure stream of morality with conjecture and doubts?
A good question is:
"Why a human as the proof/ruler/representative of God".
A better question is how to recognize the proof.
This I believe no book other than Quran explains better.
Who better fit to explain the proof of God and his path, then God himself?
"Sometimes I think you guys see all that I see, know what I know, and reminded by what I am reminded of, but then just turn away from the path because it seems hard or scary.
Sometimes I think you guys understand and perceive, but then convince yourself you have reason to turn away from the truth, by merely responding with whatever words you choose to respond by."
No. If we saw ANY proof of your deity, we wouldn't be atheists. We might not decide it's worthy of worship, but we would no longer be able to call ourselves atheists. Although very little unites atheists beside seeing no evidence of the existence of any gods, we do tend toward the intellectually honest. We refute unsupported fantasy and appreciate solid science and logic.
"Why a human as the proof/ruler/representative of God".
A human is proof of being human, and no more. Although if you examine the scientific evidence, a human is proof of evolution, and proof that these bodies were the result of long adaptation and mutation, and not the creation of a "perfect" being.
"Who better fit to explain the proof of God and his path, then God himself?"
Oh yes, we finally agree! Woo-hoo! Now just get rid of the books and preachers, get out of the way, and have God come 'round and say "HI". That's the only thing that's ever going to convince me.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
(September 22, 2017 at 3:04 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Now just get rid of the books and preachers, get out of the way, and have God come 'round and say "HI". That's the only thing that's ever going to convince me.
This is the only thing that would convince me, too. No more books purporting to be the holy writ of a deity. No more human messengers claiming to speak for gods. No more fucking "spiritual experiences" that we cannot empirically verify. Direct contact with the gods themselves in the real world, or STFU and GTFO.
