The Third Hundred Years War Has 86 To Go

[Thumpalumpacus]

Why would that be odd?  We don't have to shoulder full responsibility, but we do have to shoulder some responsibility.  

It's odd because as you know more than most here, some of us shoulder all the responsibility. I don't mind paying my taxes for their paychecks, but I sure ain't comfortable sending them into a situation where delivering MREs puts them on the wrong end of the rifle.

The fact is that we're seen by many there as being an occupying force, and that is why American GIs end up as targets, no matter our good intentions. It's too late for us to take back our invasion.

People getting routinely shot at are broadly open to suggestions as to how to end that, in my experience.  Sure, they might end up doing shitty things to each other if we refuse to leave.  Imagine what they would do to each other if we did.

And if that's what their feelings and motivations lead them to do, what purpose is served by continual deployments? They will almost certainly continue their internecine warfare once we've left, if we go by history. Why in the world should we volunteer to be targets?

In that case, let the flyboys handle business, and let's keep you grunts safe. We can airdrop lots of shit ... MK84s, Snakeyes, MOABs, food parcels ...

That -absolutely- doesn't work from a peacekeeping standpoint.  It's dehumanizing, and the locals don't build trust and relationships with the pilot/drone.  It's a good way to win a war, if you have the cash.....but it's a terrible way to build a nation.  The latter is more like high risk community policing than warfighting.  Imagine how americans would respond if the police were lobbing missiles through their kitchen windows with drones....all in the name of peace and order.  I doubt they'd get much peace and order out of that, or much public sympathy.

That's why there's all the chatter about building a "new army" to match the changing conditions on the ground.  The way we used to operate, and the euipment we used...meant to fight an all out conventional war with the soviets.......it;s not really useful in the sorts of engagements we've been getting ourselves into.  The all out war mindset breeds terrorists and insurgents.  The equipment isn't really designed to -handle- terrorists and insurgents.

I was being sarcastic, not serious.

But in seriousness: if they don't want peace, all the peace-keeping personnel deployed there are only so many potential targets. Without that desire for peace, all the nation-building is only so much pissing in the wind. I've got no problem with helping them who want help. Let them show it.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's odd because as you know more than most here, some of us shoulder all the responsibility. I don't mind paying my taxes for their paychecks, but I sure ain't comfortable sending them into a situation where delivering MREs puts them on the wrong end of the rifle.

The fact is that we're seen by many there as being an occupying force, and that is why American GIs end up as targets, no matter our good intentions. It's too late for us to take back our invasion.

They're volunteers.  The manner in which we pursued the invasion put up one hell of an obstacle to nation building, agreed.  Thing is, many of the means and mistakes we pursued in Iraq/Afghanistan we also pursued, initially, where our intervention has succeeded.  This goes to show that it -can- be turned around, but it doesn't make it any less difficult, ofc.  

And if that's what their feelings and motivations lead them to do, what purpose is served by continual deployments? They will almost certainly continue their internecine warfare once we've left, if we go by history. Why in the world should we volunteer to be targets?

Multitudinous purpose.  Cheif among them, however, is putting up a solid object between those who feel that way and those who do not.  This is what it means when we intervene, when we decide to fight someones battles for or alongside them.  We are volunteering to die for them, if it comes to that.  I suppose people don;t think of it that way, especially joes...they think about killing the other motherfucker...but that is the practical reality of the commitment we've made.  It really can;t go any other way.  You cannot intervene on someones behalf against a militant opposition without becoming a target of that opposition.  Right behind that is moving people from one collum to the other, and that can mean taking a few hooks to the jaw - exhausting their frustration. The latter is the most difficult, but without it we're unlikely to achieve our stated ends excepting the unrealistic scenario in which we kill every single one of them without making any more in the process. There is no reason for a militant to "switch sides" or compromise or comply when they know that the end result of a return to civil order will be a sponsored purge that targets them. Even if their ideological commitment to militantism was wavering, at that point, it becomes a commitment to their own survival. They keep shooting, because if they stopped, they would be shot.

I was being sarcastic, not serious.

But in seriousness: if they don't want peace, all the peace-keeping personnel deployed there are only so many potential targets. Without that desire for peace, all the nation-building is only so much pissing in the wind. I've got no problem with helping them who want help. Let them show it.

They™ -do- want peace.  As much as any human being anywhere wants peace.  Iraqi parents are not huddling in the rubble with their children wishing for a state of perpetual war. For many "showing it" ha been a thing that would get them killed by a unit that patrols their streets even when we don't - and even still...they've "shown it" time and time again.

I agree, very much, that the whole thing is a giant shit sandwich, I'm only suggesting that some components of our malaise, while it's easy to understand and agree with them conceptually, aren't really compatible with reality. In incorporating them as-is we've done nothing but adhere to the battle plans of the enemy. No one but those who wish harm on the others wants the world or anyone else to believe it;s hopeless. That;s -their- propoganda. Leave now, this can never work. Leave now, or I'll hurt people and make things worse. Leave now, or more of you will die. Leave now, my victims don't want your help. Leave now, the conflict is embarrassing you. Leave now, before you become bankrupt. This is nothing more or less than militant pr reading our malaise and feeding it back to us. We've already done the work for them, they know it's compelling to us, even if they're poor arguments in and of themselves.

The situation isn't entirely different from any other type of domestic abuse..wherein the abuser threatens the abused and forces their complicity to their own abuse even when assistance is standing right in front of them. We don't say "Fine, fuck you then, Jane - I hope he kills you, you obviously want to be abused. Get back to me when you're ready to show that you want our help. Being here is sucking up money and your boyfriend might hit me for my trouble."

[Thumpalumpacus]

You're a better man than I am, Khem ... that isn't sarcasm either.

[The Grand Nudger]

Nah, just thoroughly indoctrinated. That's the beauty of it, you don't have to worry yourself over the minutia. Just follow me.  

[Minimalist]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/15/world...click&_r=0

Needing to relieve himself, the man stepped out of a bus into the night air of the Syrian desert.
The bus was part of a convoy carrying 300 Islamic State fighters that had been stuck there for days, prevented by American bombers from moving forward and prevented by the presence of women and children from being bombed.
The man walked a short distance away and began to urinate.
An American Hellfire missile ended the excursion.

Each Hellfire costs $115,000.  No wonder we are going fucking broke.

[Minimalist]

Now the Brits are sticking their noses in trying to breathe life back into Sykes-Picot!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/...ependence/

Sir Michael Fallon in Iraq to persuade Kurdistan president to call off independence vote

[Minimalist]

And we keep making the same mistakes........

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/us-to-se...an-mattis/

US to send over 3,000 troops to Afghanistan: Mattis

Essentially, 1/100th of a soldier per sq mile.  And winter's coming. 

"Training" is a panacea.  The will to fight has to come first.

[Minimalist]

Pretty decent analysis.

https://www.voanews.com/a/kurdish-vote-i...36520.html

Will Kurdish Vote Trigger Yet Another War in Iraq?

The problem is that it depends on humans acting rationally.  Not a good bet under the best of circumstances.

[GUBU]

Now the Brits are sticking their noses in trying to breathe life back into Sykes-Picot!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/...ependence/

Sir Michael Fallon in Iraq to persuade Kurdistan president to call off independence vote

It's Michael Fallon. His biggest achievement was once managing to successfully wipe his arse after going to the toilet.

[Minimalist]

Just leave us out of it, guys.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articl...um-anadolu

Turkey, Iran, Iraq Consider Counter-Measures Over Kurdish Referendum

(As if the US can ever keep its nose out of anything!)