Excuse your God

[Simon Moon]

Are you saying that to know it's true you first have to believe it's true?

No, the opposite, I am saying first you know, and then you have faith, which is nothing but confidences in one's knowledge of clear proofs once they are understood through reflection.

What is the process I should use in order to 'know' that your god exists?

If I 'know' that god exists, why do I need faith? I don't use faith for any of my other beliefs. I rely on evidence and valid/sound logic for those. That is the only way I can claim to know things, to be convinced they are true by the availability of evidence and logic to support them.

Thank you for trying to understand.

I know this was not meant for me, but I always want to understand why people believe things, and if they are able to support their beliefs with evidence and valid/sound logic, I will be convinced to believe them also. If a god exists, I want to know it.

I am saying who you end up following if God exists and made a guidance come from him, are the same humans you have to look for proofs of the religion, and their authority, and God's authority and to know who God is and his manifest proofs.

That's a big 'IF' you dropped in the first sentence. As soon as you, or anyone, can get past that huge 'IF', then and only then, can we start talking about humans that might have some demonstrable information from this god.

As it is, any human that currently claims to have a direct line to a god, is, as far as I can tell, delusional. And if they are not being delusional, how am I supposed to tell the difference between a delusional person, and a person that actually has a line to god?

And if you don't go to them when you are lost and confused, but just wait for a Theists to come save you from ignorance or rely on other then God to know God, there is no excuse if you had access to their teachings.

I am not confused or lost. I am unconvinced.

If I use the mind that your god gave me, to come to the conclusion that there is not enough evidence to support his existence, why is it my fault? Your god knows what would convince me, right? He also wants me to believe he exists, right? How is it my fault if I don't believe?

It is upon you to give religions their proper due and investigate the truth and strive to know God to your last breath.

I do give religions their 'proper due'. None of them are supported by evidence or logic to believe they are true.

How can I strive to 'know' god, until I am convinced that he exists?

You have this exactly backwards.

First I have to be convinced, by evidence and valid/sound logic, that a god exists. Then I have to be convinced, by the same criteria, that it is your god. Then we can start talking about whether he is worthy of 'striving to know him'.

If you spent as much time studying basic logic as you do coming up with all these fallacious posts, you may be able to free your mind of your unwarranted beliefs.

[Neo-Scholastic]

OP: Please present peer reviewed evidence that I care.

[Mystic]

What is the process I should use in order to 'know' that your god exists?

If I 'know' that god exists, why do I need faith? I don't use faith for any of my other beliefs. I rely on evidence and valid/sound logic for those. That is the only way I can claim to know things, to be convinced they are true by the availability of evidence and logic to support them.

Because the knowledge is constantly being attacked inwardly and outwardly, so despite having that knowledge which you do and will never prove you don't, to me or to yourself, it takes power from love of God to testify to him and do away with the shadows.
And who more capable of causing us to reflect properly so we know him than God himself. Yes there is no reason to assume Quran has that reflection and not any other holy book from both being religion, but never the less,  if enough people talk about the wall of China, it becomes reasonable to think it probably most likely exists.
The problem right now there aren't enough people showing proper reflection on Quran, so it lacks in that regard, and humans have failed it in that regard. But I am testifying to it's ability to guide you to the proper means of reflecting, curing you of the irrational doubts you are in, and giving you clarity.
You can either take it from me or not.  I am saying as well, that althought I try to present some of it's arguments,  God is the best of guides and the guide he appoints are more worthy to be paid attention to.
In other words, I am telling you to stop relying on me, and begin to look for a reliable handhold and rope from God. If you search all your life for that handhold but don't find it, I am sure God will not punish you.
But apathy to God, the Beloved of all beloveds, the one who deserves the most love from us and most value and respect, requires you at least search. I believe if you search you will find.
I am not going to tell you how to reflect over God's book, we all have our own talents, and everything clicks differently given different minds. But I believe God put all cures in that and has through the family of that reminder, brought forth its cures through clear elaboration.

If a god exists, I want to know it. 

Good, act on that desire, and see where it will lead you.
Waiting for people like me who are insane (mentally I am insane) and barely know themselves let alone where you are at and how you think, is not reliable. That is why I am saying your best bet is to find a firm handhold and rope from God, and search what truly is his guidance on earth. If none exists, if God doesn't exist, well than atleast you did your best and if he exists, he won't fault you for that. But apathy as an excuse won't be very valid given that God is defined to be the being we should least apathetic towards knowing and searching and finding.

[LadyForCamus]

I accept I am a sinner.

I accept I am corrupt.

I accept the Bible is true.

I accept Evolution is a lie.

I accept atheists are immoral.

I accept homosexuality is wrong.

Theists, please present peer reviewed evidence for any of these positions.

Putting aside that I'm not committed to some of the claims you mention as well as that your understanding of their content may significantly differ from my own, I cannot provide any evidence in their support. I'm fully aware that my religious beliefs are not rationally based.

Finally, some honesty around here.

[Mystic]

No, the opposite, I am saying first you know, and then you have faith, which is nothing but confidences in one's knowledge of clear proofs once they are understood through reflection.

That does not make sense, at least to me, how do you first 'know'?

You don't, you form a hypothesis that it is true, search for evidence and reflect over the scripture in that regard. You also like the scientific method search to find it false. You do this check and balance objectively, and if the book is from God, it will make you reflect over things you should reflect about pertaining to proofs of God and the proper religion.  If you reflect sincerely and give it a proper study, but find it is false or find no proofs for it, then it is definitely false since it claims to be a guidance and what kind of guidance doesn't guide a sincere objective seeker.

It is that simple my friend. Don't overthink it but do think it through.

---

That does not make sense, at least to me, how do you first 'know'?

You don't, you form a hypothesis that it is true, search for evidence and reflect over the scripture in that regard. You also like the scientific method search to find it false. You do this check and balance objectively, and if the book is from God, it will make you reflect over things you should reflect about pertaining to proofs of God and the proper religion.  If you reflect sincerely and give it a proper study, but find it is false or find no proofs for it, then it is definitely false since it claims to be a guidance and what kind of guidance doesn't guide a sincere objective seeker.

It is that simple my friend. Don't overthink it but do think it through.

Oh sorry, I misread. You first know through reflection over proofs. But that doesn't mean you will accept them.  This can be lack of confidence in ability to understand and one's perception or it can be for a variety of factors. Some of these are psychological, and hence Quran helps do away with those sources of doubts as well.

When you take leap and jump on confidence in vision and the loving heart perceives through confidence it has recognize the truth admist the many lies and falsehoods, then it will be only due to knowing already.

But knowing clear proofs doesn't mean one will take the leap of faith but can turn their heart away and deny the clearest of things.

[LadyForCamus]

OP: Please present peer reviewed evidence that I care.

It's fine, Neo.  We already know you don't care that your beliefs are unevidenced.  😏

[Simon Moon]

What is the process I should use in order to 'know' that your god exists?

If I 'know' that god exists, why do I need faith? I don't use faith for any of my other beliefs. I rely on evidence and valid/sound logic for those. That is the only way I can claim to know things, to be convinced they are true by the availability of evidence and logic to support them.

Because the knowledge is constantly being attacked inwardly and outwardly, so despite having that knowledge which you do and will never prove you don't, to me or to yourself, it takes power from love of God to testify to him and do away with the shadows.

If by 'attacking the knowledge' you mean to hold up god claims to critical thinking, skepticism, and valid/sound logic, then yes, guilty as charged.

I don't have the knowledge you claim I have. You are calling me a liar. You are also claiming to know what is in my mind better than I do. Do you have some kind of special power?

I don't have to prove that I don't have this knowledge you claim I have. You are the one making the claim I have it, it is up to you to support your claim.

And who more capable of causing us to reflect properly so we know him than God himself.

Yes, I agree. I will be convinced that a god exists as soon as he communicates with me, in such a way that is convincing.

Yes there is no reason to assume Quran has that reflection and not any other holy book from both being religion, but never the less,  if enough people talk about the wall of China, it becomes reasonable to think it probably most likely exists.

Nope. Fail.

Just because the majority of people believe something, adds zero support that it is true. At one time, the majority of people believed the earth was flat. How did that work out for them?

If the existence of a god was as demonstrable as the Great Wall, there would not be any atheists.

The problem right now there aren't enough people showing proper reflection on Quran, so it lacks in that regard, and humans have failed it in that regard. But I am testifying to it's ability to guide you to the proper means of reflecting, curing you of the irrational doubts you are in, and giving you clarity.

I've read the Quran. It is filled with superstitious nonsense, and some not so nice ways to treat infidels, homosexuals and women.

I have zero irrational doubts. I repeat, ZERO. My doubts in the existence of gods is based purely, and 100%, on rationality, critical thinking and skepticism. In other words, the complete opposite of irrationality.

You can either take it from me or not.  I am saying as well, that althought I try to present some of it's arguments,  God is the best of guides and the guide he appoints are more worthy to be paid attention to.
In other words, I am telling you to stop relying on me, and begin to look for a reliable handhold and rope from God. If you search all your life for that handhold but don't find it, I am sure God will not punish you.
But apathy to God, the Beloved of all beloveds, the one who deserves the most love from us and most value and respect, requires you at least search. I believe if you search you will find.
I am not going to tell you how to reflect over God's book, we all have our own talents, and everything clicks differently given different minds. But I believe God put all cures in that and has through the family of that reminder, brought forth its cures through clear elaboration.

I am not relying on you, or any other specific Muslim. I've read the book, I've heard (and refuted) all the arguments for the existence of a god, I've read and refuted all your flawed arguments.

Here's an idea, that your god should have no problem with, if he is as powerful as you believe. Pray to him to let you know, what is the best argument and/or evidence that would convince us that he exists.

If a god exists, I want to know it. 

Good, act on that desire, and see where it will lead you.
Waiting for people like me who are insane (mentally I am insane) and barely know themselves let alone where you are at and how you think, is not reliable. That is why I am saying your best bet is to find a firm handhold and rope from God, and search what truly is his guidance on earth. If none exists, if God doesn't exist, well than atleast you did your best and if he exists, he won't fault you for that. But apathy as an excuse won't be very valid given that God is defined to be the being we should least apathetic towards knowing and searching and finding.
[/quote]

I don't have a particular desire to believe in the existence of a god. I am definitely not relying on you.

My main desire is to have as many true beliefs as possible, and as few false beliefs as possible. That is why I come here and talk to theists, to hear what they believe, and most importantly, why they believe it.

So, if you admit that you are insane, how do you know you can trust anything you claim about god? Shouldn't you be especially careful to verify your beliefs by using critical thinking and evidence?

[Mystic]

I find the witness argument the most convincing, but there are many arguments I haven't even present that are in Quran.

I am not convinced you guys are honest to yourselves or others. I am not convinced you don't know God exists. I am convinced you deceive yourselves and cover up sacred knowledge by superficial mask you mask yourself with and ignorance you hold on to with no rational reason.

If I believe your doubt was rational, I would doubt God myself, but I don't believe it is.

[The Grand Nudger]

You know, MK...for something to be an argument..there are standards.  It's silly to call whatever profession of faith catches your fancy an argument.

[Mystic]

You know, MK...for something to be an argument..there are standards.  It's silly to call whatever profession of faith catches your fancy an argument.

An argument just has to prove something to be true to be a good argument.  Any other standards we make are arbitrary.