Posts: 69265
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: Jesusism - Just Another First Century Mystery Cult
October 19, 2017 at 11:07 pm
It's not as if origen tells a different story when he's putting words in celsus' mouth.........I don't understand the objection.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 69246
Threads: 3759
Joined: August 2, 2009
Reputation:
258
RE: Jesusism - Just Another First Century Mystery Cult
October 19, 2017 at 11:10 pm
(This post was last modified: October 19, 2017 at 11:12 pm by Minimalist.)
Hoffman, who unlike Holding is an actual scholar and not just a fucking xtian money-grubber, actually went through all of Contra Celsum and extracted the words of Celsus which Origen sought to refute and consolidated them into a facsimile of what On The True Doctrine must have looked like originally. Quite a tremendous work of scholarship but of course not something that the assholes could tolerate since it does not give their godboy proper due.
I have the book somewhere around the house. I read it some years ago. Fantastic stuff. Unlike Origen, Celsus was not a pious stick-in-the-mud.
BTW, another superb quote of Celsus':
Quote:"You are fond of saying that in the old days this same most high god made these and greater promises to those who gave heed to his commandments and worshiped him. But at the risk of appearing unkind, I ask how much good has been done by those promises have done either the Jews before you or you in your present circumstances. And would you have us put out faith in such a god? Instead of being masters of the whole world, the jews today have no home of any kind."
Posts: 3709
Threads: 18
Joined: September 29, 2015
Reputation:
10
RE: Jesusism - Just Another First Century Mystery Cult
October 19, 2017 at 11:27 pm
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
Posts: 69265
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: Jesusism - Just Another First Century Mystery Cult
October 19, 2017 at 11:37 pm
(This post was last modified: October 19, 2017 at 11:39 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Wouldn't this line, from the first post in thread...respond to the above?
Quote:To say Christianity was a mystery religion is not to say that Christianity is exactly like any other mystery religion, any more than any mystery religion was 'exactly like' any other.
I read the rest of that link.....and I found exactly what I expected. A man calling the gospels eyewitness accounts and insisting that we had some empty tomb as evidence....lemme guess, Habermas is an apologist?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 3709
Threads: 18
Joined: September 29, 2015
Reputation:
10
RE: Jesusism - Just Another First Century Mystery Cult
October 19, 2017 at 11:43 pm
(This post was last modified: October 19, 2017 at 11:45 pm by RoadRunner79.)
(October 19, 2017 at 11:04 pm)Minimalist Wrote: And who is going to decide? You? You are a scholar of ancient Greco-Roman Literature, I suppose?
No... but I can read... and I like to check things out.
I just want to go back to the source, to see if it is accurate. As well, to see the context, and what origin said in response.
In the end, this is just one man's opinion so I don't see it as a big deal. Especially when there are others who contradict him about the early Church (including those outside of Christianity).
Besides, if all he did, was pull the words of Celsus out (remove the words of Origen), then I dont' think I need to be a scholar to evaluate if that is accurate.
Unlike some, I don't dismiss things, just because of who wrote it. But I do want to know what they based it on. And especially with Carrier and Jehovah Witnesses, I have learned that you should always go back and check the original source.
(October 19, 2017 at 11:37 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Wouldn't this line, from the first post in thread...respond to the above?
Quote:To say Christianity was a mystery religion is not to say that Christianity is exactly like any other mystery religion, any more than any mystery religion was 'exactly like' any other.
I read the rest of that link.....and I found exactly what I expected. A man calling the gospels eyewitness accounts and insisting that we had some empty tomb as evidence....lemme guess, Habermas is an apologist?
Does that matter?
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
Posts: 11697
Threads: 117
Joined: November 5, 2016
Reputation:
43
RE: Jesusism - Just Another First Century Mystery Cult
October 23, 2017 at 2:25 pm
So Roads evidence is some bullshit from a loon U . And yes Christianity is virtually identical to most if not all mystery religions and is just variation of the theme . THERE IS NOTHING UNIQUE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY that requires the supernatural to explain it. Nor is the acceptance Jeebus was not real a conspiracy no matter how much Road distorts the position in order to dismiss the fact it best fits the evidence.
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
Posts: 69265
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: Jesusism - Just Another First Century Mystery Cult
October 23, 2017 at 3:26 pm
(This post was last modified: October 23, 2017 at 3:30 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 19, 2017 at 11:43 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Does that matter? Clearly it does. The articles of his faith have run all over any chance at getting a cogent response. Not only are his comments pre-empted by section I quoted above..the things he points to as an illustration of what's already been responded to are nonsense.
Apologism is not history. It's not even comparative myth.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 69246
Threads: 3759
Joined: August 2, 2009
Reputation:
258
RE: Jesusism - Just Another First Century Mystery Cult
October 23, 2017 at 4:15 pm
Quote:Gary Habernas
Oh please. Who's next with you? Ken Ham or Jerry Falwell?
This is a History Forum. Your bullshit, and those bullshitters, are not HISTORY. Carrier is. He makes a most compelling case that jesusism is nothing more than the syncretism of judaism with Hellenistic thought and he has a discussion elsewhere of how Hellenism mixed with various other cultures across the Greco-Roman world to create these mystery cults. I understand that you want your bullshit to be "special" but it isn't.
If you want to talk about Habermas and his idiot "minimal facts" nonsense ( which is his apparent way of saying "no facts") we can do that in the Religion Forum where reality does not matter.
Posts: 11697
Threads: 117
Joined: November 5, 2016
Reputation:
43
RE: Jesusism - Just Another First Century Mystery Cult
October 23, 2017 at 5:27 pm
Gary Habernas is an apologist crank
Richard Carriers a respected historian
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
Posts: 69246
Threads: 3759
Joined: August 2, 2009
Reputation:
258
RE: Jesusism - Just Another First Century Mystery Cult
October 23, 2017 at 6:32 pm
Quote:Richard Carriers a respected historian
No, see he can't be because it is dogma with these people that "all" real historians agree that the jesus shit is true.
And you KNOW how they are about dogma.
|
