"Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.

[Mystic]

Are you fucking serious? You don't think that other scientists would seize the opportunity to overturn the scholarly consensus and make themselves incredibly famous?

As I said, scientists might be biased to one position or another, but if they're doing science as opposed to simply proselytising then the scientific method is as impartial as it gets.

In theory Shia Fiqh says to throw out everything in hadiths that contradict Quran. Yet almost all Shiite scholars follow hadiths that contradict the Quran and there is consensus on things that contradict Quran among them.

I believe bias cannot explain everything, there is something more dark and sinister behind our actions.

Blindness to arguments that prove a Creator and blindness to design in his creation, is not explained by bias. It's explained by Satan and the dark forces.

[Edwardo Piet]

From now on I'm so disinterested in MK's rambling that when I see "MK" I'm just going to think "Mortal Kombat" which I've been playing recently and it's much more fun than reading ramblings about Islam.

[The Grand Nudger]

"Satan and the dark forces" explains a great many things, at least in the manner that it can - leaving them completely unexplained.  May as well say BOB SAGET explains the same stuff, for all it's worth. Be a good name for a Lolli Pop band though.

[Mystic]

The mockery that destroys people in the past:

[Yusufali 18:106] That is their reward, Hell, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.

[18:56] We send not the messengers save as bearers of good news and warners. Those who disbelieve contend with falsehood in order to refute the Truth thereby. And they take Our signs and that wherewith they are threatened as a jest.

[Yusufali 18:57] And who doth more injustice than one who is reminded of the Signs of his Lord, but turns away from them, forgetting the (deeds) which his hands have sent forth? Verily We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this, and over their ears, deafness, if thou callest them to guidance, even then will they never accept guidance.


The last phrase shows that a people who guidance is manifested to them and they are called to won't follow it. They have forgotten the severity of their deeds and take signs of God as a mockery.

In fact, if you mock the issue of guidance and the guide, where will you go but settling for error and darkness? 


[Yusufali 25:41] When they see thee, they treat thee no otherwise than in mockery: "Is this the one whom Allah has sent as a messenger?"

[Shakir 25:9] See what likenesses do they apply to you, so they have gone astray, therefore they shall not be able to find a way.


And how can they find a way when they mock the person who's family with him is the way to God:

[Pickthal 25:57] Say: I ask of you no reward for this, save that whoso will may choose a way unto his Lord.

[42:23] That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin (of mine)." And if anyone earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service).


When we mock the issue of guidance and the guide, naturally, we aren't looking for a proof regarding this guide:

[13:7] And the Unbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" But thou art truly a warner, and to every people, there is a guide.

And that guide is the one himself is God's proof:

[Pickthal 98:1] Those who disbelieve among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters could not have left off (erring) till the clear proof came unto them,
[Yusufali 98:2] A messenger from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy:


And the Messenger reciting the signs of God was also said to be a sufficient sign:

[Shakir 29:50] And they say: Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord? Say: The signs are only with Allah, and I am only a plain warner.
[Shakir 29:51] Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.


And indeed, in all this, was has to believed in primarily:

[Shakir 6:37] And they say: Why has not a sign been sent down to him from his Lord? Say: Surely Allah is able to send down a sign, but most of them do not know.

That is God is capable of sending down signs.


The question arises, what would such signs look like. Fron a staff turning to a snake, to waters being parted, surely God is capable of manifesting proofs and signs, the Quran has shown many possible sufficient proofs for Messengers.

Now that we don't have access to witnessing such signs, what is the type of proof we have.

This is where a book from God a long with it's reciter and manifestor of it's teachings, is sufficient, but in different times and places, the hiddenness and manifestation with respect to each soul is up to God:


[10:20] And they say: Why is not a sign sent to him from his Lord? Say: The hiding (of it) is only up to Allah; therefore wait-- surely I too, with you am of those who wait.


The Messenger had a manifest aspect and hidden aspect. Everyone witnessed he was human, but not everyone could witness him as a proof from God and sign from God:

[6:33] We know indeed the grief which their words do cause you for it is not you that they reject, but rather it is the signs of Allah, which the wicked deny.


And this doesn't mean everyone who denies Mohammad is such a person because the Quran says:



[Yusufali 4:97] When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, they say: "In what (plight) Were ye?" They reply: "Weak and oppressed Were we in the earth." They say: "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (From evil)?" Such men will find their abode in Hell,- What an evil refuge! 

[Shakir 4:98] Except the weak from among the men and the children who have not in their power the means nor can they find a way (to escape);

[Shakir 4:99] So these, it may be, Allah will pardon them, and Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.


Weak here doesn't refer to psychologically or physically weak, but without power to access the truth.

And in this regard, the light of God is promised to manifest and be perfected for humanity and the true religion to overcome all false ideologies and religions, and it was said: "wait, for we are of those waiting....".

But indeed, taking the issue of proofs from God and signs from God and his books and his Messengers as a mockery is of the worse injustices we can do. Where will we go if we don't come to the door that God has opened for us.

Where will be, if we don't seek a light and to be illuminated by it. It's obligatory for humans to seek guidance and they maybe forgiven if it was hidden from them and they had no means to it and had no way to disbelieve or believe.

The issue of guidance is essential to humans, and cannot be mocked, for we will naturally go astray.

And God is not asking us to blindly accept any book or follow what we have no knowledge, but to reflect over his proofs and signs and his holy recitation, so that we may know it is from God.

If we assume all holy books have no origin from God and go to them with that attitude, we will never discover, the true words of God and his holy majestic reciation and his reminder among the falsehoods, and the truth has to preferred over the falsehood.

A mocking behaviour to the issue of Revelation and Prophethood is where the real immaturity is at and it is a mockery that destroys as the disease it is to those who take its mantle.

[Mystic]

4:98 should say "men and women and children", the translator forgot and left out women, typical Muslim men. 

[WinterHold]

Archeological findings mean different things sometimes, take the ancient astronaut community, I can join the masses making fun of them or listen to a totally different story being told, based on the same archeological finding.

I don't watch "ancient aliens"; neither am I supporting it. But I do believe archeological evidence shows signs of advanced civilizations, and the mainstream analysis is quite....biased?

No Atlas, see there is a very big difference between the "ancient aliens" community and the actual scientist community. Archaeologists while encountering a past monument might not always know how it was made, and they will claim that they don't know. Then they'll present their hypothesis on how it might have been built and move on to finding proof for their hypothesis. On the other hand, a person from the AA community simply points to that gap in knowledge and claims "aliens did it". There is no attempt to form an actual hypothesis and/or back it up with evidence.

Also, regarding your or any other holy scriptures, they are written by humans claiming to be inspired by god. There is no reason to believe that claim if you don't trust humans. And in reality you shouldn't trust humans, rather you should base your trust upon evidence that can be verified and re-verified as needed.

The ancient astronaut theory is acknowledged to be "pseudoscience"; but evidence showed that many theories and stuff accepted to be "facts" by the scientific community, turned to be pseudoscience in the end.

Einstein and the static universe he believed in is my example.
Personally; I would treat a scientific opinion with more of a relief than pseudoscience. But just like the static universe; and just like the majority that "never looked back because the father of the atomic bomb believed in the theory", I must say that any scientific opinion could prove to be pseudoscience in the right time.

I trust my feelings; though. The idea of God in the Quran, and the concept of giving in to become a part of the universe is just astonishing for me.

[The Grand Nudger]

Your feelings are a fantastically poor indicator of the truth of some existential claim, and you're a part of the universe by default regardless of your religiosity.

[Aoi Magi]

No Atlas, see there is a very big difference between the "ancient aliens" community and the actual scientist community. Archaeologists while encountering a past monument might not always know how it was made, and they will claim that they don't know. Then they'll present their hypothesis on how it might have been built and move on to finding proof for their hypothesis. On the other hand, a person from the AA community simply points to that gap in knowledge and claims "aliens did it". There is no attempt to form an actual hypothesis and/or back it up with evidence.

Also, regarding your or any other holy scriptures, they are written by humans claiming to be inspired by god. There is no reason to believe that claim if you don't trust humans. And in reality you shouldn't trust humans, rather you should base your trust upon evidence that can be verified and re-verified as needed.

The ancient astronaut theory is acknowledged to be "pseudoscience"; but evidence showed that many theories and stuff accepted to be "facts" by the scientific community, turned to be pseudoscience in the end.

Einstein and the static universe he believed in is my example.
Personally; I would treat a scientific opinion with more of a relief than pseudoscience. But just like the static universe; and just like the majority that "never looked back because the father of the atomic bomb believed in the theory", I must say that any scientific opinion could prove to be pseudoscience in the right time.

I trust my feelings; though. The idea of God in the Quran, and the concept of giving in to become a part of the universe is just astonishing for me.

That example of "static universe" is a good example of why the scientific method and peer review works a lot better than gut feeling. See, if Einstein just followed his own opinion/feeling about it he'd have stuck with that idea, which would have been wrong in the face of reality, but because of Huble's findings did not match with his, he corrected himself and proposed other models. Science works because it keeps correcting itself to get closer to the truth, personal feelings not so much.