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"Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
#31
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
In two verses we saw that God is ready to show the signs and proofs.   And not only that but reminded proofs of not only his existence but proofs of his oneness. The question arises, what makes us perceive these "truths", what makes us perceive we are created through the vision of a witness and perfect absolute judge, mainly that we are created through the truth of his judgement.

This is a good question.  Something humans do believe intrinsically is that wisdom and morality is guidance on how to act. We know it doesn't compel us or force us to act, but an essential question to humans is what is the nature of this guidance?

In this regard, Quran says "Say:Indeed the guidance of God is the guidance" (3:73) and elsewhere Moses is quoted to have said regarding God "The one who gave everything it's creation and then guides it (20:50).

In fact, moral argument is implied in this, but is not the sole argument being made with respect to the true religion, but a lot more is being said in context of the Surahs and Quran.

Another important verse is the "God is the light of the heavens and the earth" famous verse.

What is the nature of Guidance?

It's easy to say you believe in morality and goodness, but what is but guidance from God? And what sees the truth but love of the truth and sheer honesty. When we lie to ourselves, we see but falsehood.

We will see the details of how Quran defines morality and goodness in a clear decisive manner which not only proves God but proves the proper religion.
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

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#32
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
Why should it matter how a bunch of primitives defined morality?  Is there any moral significance to not giving a shit?  None that I'm aware of.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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#33
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
I can agree with your analysis to this point.
Continue; please.

Quote:Why not a proof/Sign/indication
Quote:Sura 14, The Quran:
( 9 ) Has there not reached you the news of those before you - the people of Noah and 'Aad and Thamud and those after them? No one knows them but Allah. Their messengers brought them clear proofs, but they returned their hands to their mouths and said, "Indeed, we disbelieve in that with which you have been sent, and indeed we are, about that to which you invite us, in disquieting doubt."

( 10 ) Their messengers said, "Can there be doubt about Allah, Creator of the heavens and earth? He invites you that He may forgive you of your sins, and He delays your death for a specified term." They said, "You are not but men like us who wish to avert us from what our fathers were worshipping. So bring us a clear authority."
Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:
( 111 ) And even if We had sent down to them the angels [with the message] and the dead spoke to them [of it] and We gathered together every [created] thing in front of them, they would not believe unless Allah should will. But most of them, [of that], are ignorant.

( 112 ) And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.

Yes MK; You are correct; these verses also prove that even if the clear signs were shown; if God didn't will for the soul to believe; the person won't believe.
You are correct in your analysis.

Quote:But implied is that, some people demanding proofs will not accept proofs. And this the other side of the issue which Quran will elaborate on.

THIS. Exactly.
This is a good topic. Continue.
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#34
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
The objection that others will not accept your 'proofs' does not abrogate you of your burden of having to provide said proof. Nor do you get to decide what acceptable 'proofs' would be. I am the one who decides what it would take to convince me of a thing; and implying that others reject your 'proofs' because they are not openminded enough is dishonest.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#35
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
(November 15, 2017 at 4:26 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: In two verses we saw that God is ready to show the signs and proofs.   And not only that but reminded proofs of not only his existence but proofs of his oneness. The question arises, what makes us perceive these "truths", what makes us perceive we are created through the vision of a witness and perfect absolute judge, mainly that we are created through the truth of his judgement.

This is a good question.  Something humans do believe intrinsically is that wisdom and morality is guidance on how to act. We know it doesn't compel us or force us to act, but an essential question to humans is what is the nature of this guidance?

In this regard, Quran says "Say:Indeed the guidance of God is the guidance" (3:73) and elsewhere Moses is quoted to have said regarding God "The one who gave everything it's creation and then guides it (20:50).

In fact, moral argument is implied in this, but is not the sole argument being made with respect to the true religion, but a lot more is being said in context of the Surahs and Quran.

Another important verse is the "God is the light of the heavens and the earth" famous verse.

What is the nature of Guidance?

It's easy to say you believe in morality and goodness, but what is but guidance from God? And what sees the truth but love of the truth and sheer honesty. When we lie to ourselves, we see but falsehood.

We will see the details of how Quran defines morality and goodness in a clear decisive manner which not only proves God but proves the proper religion.

MK, assertions are not evidence or proof.. so far you are only providing assertions.. you are asserting "allah" is a witness, but you haven't provided any evidence of such. You are asserting that our morality comes from allah, and here too you didn't provide any evidence to back it up. If you really believe in Allah and are not trolling, ask him to help you understand the difference between assertion and proof first before trying to make your case here.

(November 16, 2017 at 7:57 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Yes MK; You are correct; these verses also prove that even if the clear signs were shown; if God didn't will for the soul to believe; the person won't believe.
You are correct in your analysis.

Dodgy

So allah wants the preachers to continue humiliating themselves infront of skeptics as usual? That's really benevolent of him
Quote:To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
- Lau Tzu

Join me on atheistforums Slack Cool Shades (pester tibs via pm if you need invite) Tongue

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#36
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
It's like talking to a brick wall. If we abandoned the thread, do you think he'd even notice?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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#37
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
Not in the slightest. All he wants is a platform; an audience is merely a bonus.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#38
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
(November 16, 2017 at 7:57 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: I can agree with your analysis to this point.
Continue; please.

Quote:Why not a proof/Sign/indication
Quote:Sura 14, The Quran:
( 9 )   Has there not reached you the news of those before you - the people of Noah and 'Aad and Thamud and those after them? No one knows them but Allah. Their messengers brought them clear proofs, but they returned their hands to their mouths and said, "Indeed, we disbelieve in that with which you have been sent, and indeed we are, about that to which you invite us, in disquieting doubt."

( 10 )   Their messengers said, "Can there be doubt about Allah, Creator of the heavens and earth? He invites you that He may forgive you of your sins, and He delays your death for a specified term." They said, "You are not but men like us who wish to avert us from what our fathers were worshipping. So bring us a clear authority."
Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:
( 111 )   And even if We had sent down to them the angels [with the message] and the dead spoke to them [of it] and We gathered together every [created] thing in front of them, they would not believe unless Allah should will. But most of them, [of that], are ignorant.

( 112 )   And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.

Yes MK; You are correct; these verses also prove that even if the clear signs were shown; if God didn't will for the soul to believe; the person won't believe.
You are correct in your analysis.

Quote:But implied is that,  some people demanding proofs will not accept proofs. And this the other side of the issue which Quran will elaborate on.

THIS. Exactly.
This is a good topic. Continue.

Doesn't prove anything. In fact it just makes it more ridiculous. For example, if I make up a religion on the spot, and write in my book: "People won't believe this" then when they end up not believing I can't claim I predicted the future or I'm right etc. Please...
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#39
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
(November 15, 2017 at 4:05 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(November 14, 2017 at 12:38 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: The only way I will accept proof as "he says" is if HE shows up and proves it.  On international TV.  In the presence of multiple teams of reputable scientists.  And even then, I won't necessarily accept whatever this entity says as proof that it is worth "worship".  In fact, any entity that demands worship is automatically unworthy to receive it.

*smiles* Ok, you will never accept God no matter what the proof is unless it meets your conditions. I see.

If a creature shows up and presents "godly" attributes - whatever that means - then I will certainly agree that such a creature does indeed exist.  The "worship" part - blind acceptance, obeisance, sheep-like obedience - - highly unlikely.  "Worship" is how con men get people to show up and pay them to lie.  "Worship" is the need for a higher-power parental figure to make your decisions for you and tell you what to do and how to think.  It is infantile.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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#40
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
(November 16, 2017 at 2:22 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote:
(November 16, 2017 at 7:57 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Yes MK; You are correct; these verses also prove that even if the clear signs were shown; if God didn't will for the soul to believe; the person won't believe.
You are correct in your analysis.

Dodgy

So allah wants the preachers to continue humiliating themselves infront of skeptics as usual? That's really benevolent of him

No; I don't agree to many of the OPs other points; but on this topic he is spot on !
He actually based the belief he preach on the same verses I believe; so...spot on !

If angels showed, heaven came in front of our eyes, would a non-believer believe?
I don't think so. It's lack of faith in humanity. Actually; MK brought a verse about God showing the signs for humans, and God did; the recent mind blowing evolution in cosmos discovery is just an example of that; but still humans won't believe.

That's the point.
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