Alcohol 'more dangerous than heroin'

[Tiberius]

Nobody decides what I do with my body but me. Anything else is a form of slavery.

What if you put something into your body that alters your behavior so that you harm others? Doesn't the government have the right to prevent that from happening?

They don't have the right to try to prevent it by restricting civil liberties, no. What they do have the right to do is to try to prevent it through other means (education, etc), and by punishing those who slip through the system and do commit such terrible acts.

People are always going to be people. They will cause harm to each other in some way; it's always going to happen. Trying to prevent it by removing every possible thing you can use to hurt people isn't the way to go, as it simply results in a flourishing black market (case in point, the UK banned handguns, and now only the criminals have handguns...that worked well </sarcasm>).

If you go down the route of prohibition, you end up with problems based on what you decide to ban, and where to draw the line. The only reason alcohol isn't banned is because so many people like it; same with cigarettes. All this study shows is that the governments of the world are being completely hypocritical by claiming to ban substances that cause harm, and yet allowing the most harmful of the lot to be distributed legally on practically every street.

[Shinylight]

Decriminalisation is different from full legalisation. Decriminalising drugs, as you say, does take away the punishment but is still technically illegal so you wouldn't have companies or governments producing and taxing it. For that to happen it would take legalisation.

No, if you decriminalise both the sale and use of drugs then you could have companies and governments producing them, therefore you could tax it. It makes those acts no longer a crime, although it doesn't make them completely legal, hence the regulation that I think is necessary for the sale and use of drugs.

[Skipper]

No, if you decriminalise both the sale and use of drugs then you could have companies and governments producing them, therefore you could tax it. It makes those acts no longer a crime, although it doesn't make them completely legal, hence the regulation that I think is necessary for the sale and use of drugs.

Well I don't see governments producing or taxing something that is just decriminalised. It would have to be full legalisation. Either way, my position is still that of full legalisation as I originally said, so there is no option for that in the poll.

[LastPoet]

Ok, I see the points being in favor of full legalization, still a problem came to my mind:

Children would be much more exposed to drugs, and keeping heroin in mind, an addiction on a child is worse than any indoctrination. There must be then strict regulations and harsh, very harsh punishments to infractors (eg. an adult buying drugs, but instead selling them to children). The line its still there, the state would still have expenses (enforcing and prosecuting) and even doing so, there would be still children that would fall in the trap.

I reckon tough, that legalizing all would definately dramatically decrease income to drug dealers, since legalization would definately deflate the prices of it

[Ashendant]

My country, Portugal, has been called a success story by decriminalizing drugs, if i find the exact article i would post it here

I also remember that due to that, AIDS spread has reduced significantly there has been less drug users.

Here it is

Kust look at the bolded words the rest is just crap

Britain looks at Portugal's success story over decriminalising personal drug use

System would see those caught with drugs for personal use sent to a 'dissuasion board' instead of being prosecuted

Cocaine and a rolled note Portuguese drugs policy favours sending users to 'dissuasion boards'.

British officials are examining a pioneering Portuguese anti-drugs programme that decriminalises possession of substances including heroin and cocaine.

Controversial when it was first introduced almost a decade ago, the move has turned possession into an "administrative offence", which sends those caught with drugs for personal use to a so-called dissuasion board rather than having them prosecuted.

The board, which consists of social workers and psychologists who interrogate users on their drug habit, has the power to impose a variety of sanctions, including fines, or recommend treatment. Users caught with drugs more than once are ordered to appear at police stations or a doctor's surgery.

According to a senior official at the institute for drugs and drug dependency at Portugal's ministry of health, it was approached by the UK government about a month ago for advice on how it had managed its drugs programme since 2001.

Home Office sources said yesterday they were looking at various models and programmes during a consultation period over a new drugs strategy and that the government was talking to a number of experts to ascertain what worked. The consultation had been expected to lead to a more abstinence-based approach to tackling drug use.

It follows the recent resurgence in the debate over Britain's drug policies which saw Professor Sir Ian Gilmore, who recently stepped down as head of the Royal College of Physicians, call for the government to reconsider "decriminalising" all drug possession. His comments followed similar remarks by Nicholas Green QC, chairman of the Bar Council of England and Wales, who said it was "rational" to consider "decriminalising personal drug use".

He added that he had also been persuaded by an article in the British Medical Journal, which argued that the prohibition of drugs had been "counterproductive", making many public health problems worse.

Officially, however, ministers remain resistant to the idea of decriminalisation. A Home Office statement yesterday said: "The government does not believe that decriminalisation is the right approach. Our priorities are clear; we want to reduce drug use, crack down on drug-related crime and disorder, and help addicts come off drugs for good."

David Cameron and Nick Clegg stated their support for drug law reform before entering frontbench politics. As a member of the home affairs select committee inquiry into drug misuse in 2002, Cameron voted in favour of a recommendation that the then government moved to discuss alternative policies "including the possibility of legalisation and regulation".

In the same year, Clegg also supported the legalisation of drugs – including measures for heroin to be made available under medical supervision – while he was a member of the European parliament.

The approach to Portugal, which has seen a fall in levels of petty crime associated with addicts stealing to buy drugs, as well as a drop by a third in the number of HIV diagnoses among intravenous drug users, is significant. Despite decriminalisation, it levies more fines than the UK and drug use has not increased. Those opposed to similar moves in the UK have used the same arguments as the opponents of decriminalisation in Portugal.

The drugs minister, James Brokenshire, has indicated that the ultimate aim is to help the 210,000 problem drug users in treatment to achieve a drug-free life. Most are "maintained" on synthetic opiates, rather than pushed towards abstaining.
Experiments in tolerance

Portugal

In 2001, Portugal became the first country in Europe to officially abolish criminal penalties for possession of drugs intended for personal use. Spiralling addiction rates and rising costs in combating the sale and use of drugs forced politicians to act. Those found guilty of possessing small amounts are sent to a panel made up of a psychologist, a social worker and a legal adviser who will suggest appropriate treatment. Officials claim that the policy is working and that addiction rates have fallen.

The Netherlands

The Dutch classify cannabis in all its forms as a soft drug and the smoking of it, even in public, is not prosecuted. A system of licensed "coffee shops" is tolerated, and cannabis, although technically illegal, can be bought and sold in small amounts for personal consumption. Some Dutch politicians have moved to tighten these controls in response to worries about the approach encouraging drug tourism. The trafficking and sale of drugs remains illegal.

Switzerland

Zurich's Platzspitz Park allowed a needle exchange project for heroin addicts in the mid-1980s. Addicts openly brought heroin and injected themselves knowing that local police were ordered not to patrol the park. The experiment ended after the number of addicts in the park rose from a few hundred in 1987 to more than 20,000 in 1992.

Colombia

In February 2009, former presidents of Colombia, Brazil and Mexico said that the war on drugs was a "complete failure". César Gaviria, Henrique Cardoso and Ernesto Zedillo, all conservative politicians, called for a new strategy based on public health, including the legalisation of marijuana.

UK

In October 2009 the UK's chief drugs adviser, Professor David Nutt, was sacked for contradicting government advice on the harm caused by certain drugs. Nutt claimed that taking ecstasy is statistically no more dangerous than horse riding.

US

1996 Californian voters passed Proposition 215, allowing for the sale and medical use of marijuana for patients with Aids, cancer and other serious and painful diseases. The marijuana has to be recommended for approval by a California-licensed physician. The sale of medical marijuana is subject to local taxes.

May 2010 President Obama embarks on an agenda for tackling drug use with greater emphasis on prevention and "harm reduction". This signalled a step change from the "war on drugs" approach favoured by President Nixon 40 years earlier.

August 2010 Mexican president Felipe Calderón urged world leaders to at least debate the issue of legalising drug use. The beleaguered president spoke out after new figures showed that 28,000 people had been killed in Mexico's current drugs wars.

2004 In series three of the TV drama The Wire, right, a drugs-tolerance zone in a rundown area of Baltimore, known as Hamsterdam, is endorsed by the local police. The fictional experiment had mixed results, but the programme stirred debate with viewers.

Jason Rodrigues

someone commented that also reduced new addicts growth by taking the "badboy" kick out of drugs

[theVOID]

I agree that those things would be beneficial, but regarding a drug of heroin's caliber I am very cautious about legalizing that. But since I have a personal bias about it, I might be wrong. If it goes legalized, I wouldn't oppose that really, I wouldn't return to it despite how gooooood it feels, and some falls, one has really to fall to be able to discern how hard it is to get up again.

There would definitely need to be a cost benefit analysis, however any standard that precludes Heroin and Crack and allows Alcohol will be a tricky criteria to reach, and may have to become rather arbitrary, like "tends not to be injected". If we set standards that perchance preclude alcohol then the chances of it getting upheld are Nil.

Essentially we need a standard by which we can effectively judge harm as well as the general impact on society, and in that case Alcohol and Heroin do similar harm, however the benign aspects of Alcohol are much greater than Heroin, so I think you could justify Alcohol as a maximum standard of harm, compared to it's benignity.

Alcohol is more benign in more circumstances than tobacco, for instance, and thus you could justifiably outlaw tobacco while keeping alcohol legal.

[Loki_999]

Ok, I see the points being in favor of full legalization, still a problem came to my mind:

Children would be much more exposed to drugs, and keeping heroin in mind, an addiction on a child is worse than any indoctrination.

And the kids these days are not exposed to drugs? Every now and again you hear the stories of drugs being peddled in schools (a few years ago there was a scandal in my home town because some guy was selling drugs to the kids outside the school gates... a junior school FFS!).

In some school, especially city center ones you also hear about kids carrying guns (and i'm talking about England here, not he US - where guns are supposed to be quite difficult to get hold of). Spent a couple of hours once talking to a London schoolteacher about 10 years ago when on a train journey. She kept thinking about quitting because it was tearing her apart having to deal with kids carrying weapons to school, taking drugs, smoking, drinking, etc. And this wasn't some crazy old grandma of a schoolteacher. She was in her late 20's early 30's from what I could tell and seemed like a normal person.

[theVOID]

Another thought, as for the gateway drug thing... Weed never encouraged me to smoke crack, it was the dude who sells the stuff. If people are so worried about fucking "Gateways" their primary concern should be removing the drug trade form the hands of criminal syndicates.

And as far as "Drug Gateways" are concerned, I had no interest in substances at all before Alcohol, then it was tobacco, and once I was good with getting wasted and taking plant matter into my lungs weed was an inevitable next step

[Loki_999]

Oh yeah, definitely gateway drugs. I started on LSD, then went onto Ecstasy and Amphetamines, then onto weed, and finally ended up smoking cigs... which are apparently going to kill me according to the packs. Thanks a lot LSD you bastard for leading me onto cigs.

[theVOID]

I love LSD, leave it alone