Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.

[LadyForCamus]

MysticKnight:  Is not the following by LFC not an accurate summary of your argument?

No need to be bothered wading through his text walls of meaningless blather.  I can paraphrase every attempt at an argument made by MK right here:

1. If objective value exists, then Allah exists ( non-sequitur)

2. Objective value exists (unevidenced/unsupported assertion)

3. Therefore, god exists (wtf?!)

And then, when we object to premise 2., and ask him to demonstrate its truth, he shoots back with, “you guys just don’t want to believe, but deep down you know I’m right.”

Epic fail on every level, 100% of the time.

He doesn’t seem to care that his argument is fallacious, does he?  He just...feels the truth, and expects that to be enough for the rest of humanity.

[Angrboda]

MysticKnight:  Is not the following by LFC not an accurate summary of your argument?

He doesn’t seem to care that his argument is fallacious, does he?  He just...feels the truth, and expects that to be enough for the rest of humanity.

He claims to have supported his premises. I didn't see it. I saw a lot of "I believe it, therefore it must be true." Which is just bullshit. That's not supporting the premises.

[pocaracas]

Whatever reason is given to any of those questions, it is given because of the patent absence of any divine creature on Earth.

It is clear that only people can pass on the information of god to other people.

What you said is true. There is only one God and his name/face from humans must be what guides humans and God manifests proofs, and there is no divine creature, rather only divinely appointed creatures from the earth in the form of what is termed "humans".

I know you can't understand this, but those "divinely appointed creatures" have very very very likely not been appointed at all.
Like Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, like L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, or like many others that time has forgotten, they are simply charismatic people who manage to get other people following their ideas... and, of course, if they can convince their followers that they were divinely appointed, then they're golden and set for an eternity of believers.

Note that no actual "divine appointment" is required to get people to follow; no "divine appointment" is required to write nicely sounding behavioral rules for a society; no "divine appointment" is required for people to perpetuate the belief that the person(s) is(are) "divinely appointed".

A divine appointment and a lack of such divine appointment are formally equivalent to their followers. All they need is to believe that there was a divine appointment.

Still, no god worthy of that name would require a few select people to carry its message. It would carry the message itself. We don't see that happening... never has, and I doubt it ever will.
I'll ask again,

[Mystic]

Note that no actual "divine appointment" is required to get people to follow; no "divine appointment" is required to write nicely sounding behavioral rules for a society; no "divine appointment" is required for people to perpetuate the belief that the person(s) is(are) "divinely appointed".

A divine appointment and a lack of such divine appointment are formally equivalent to their followers. All they need is to believe that there was a divine appointment.

What you say is essentially true. And I understand that a lot of people claiming to be Prophets or Avatars or Shamans were liars and didn't have proof.

The essential thing is the truth has proofs and firm evidence. 

And while false religions would want you to follow their leaders without proof and clear insight,  the true religion should condemn believing or following without knowledge and challenge all people to bring their proofs if they are truthful.

A person trying to get others to follow a path without proofs and happens to follow the true religion is making people think the religion has no firm proofs.

And what does God have to with his guides (starship), that is big theme in Quran. Again you act like it didn't discuss this.

It did. And indeed there are many false Prophets and many false leaders, but this doesn't negate that God can prove his guidance and manifest it in various degrees.

Usually the manifestation of guidance is not the issue, but, people apathy to know the truth and turn away from proofs by their sheer desires, is the problem.

And what God intends with the chosen ones and why he brings them in form of chosen families is the heart of the discussion of the Quran. And how he proves them and how their path is distinct, and how they themselves essentially are the proofs, is a good discussion.

Why don't you show me you understand at least somewhat of the gist of the Quran pertaining to these questions so we can have an actually discussion on knowledge as opposed to all this ignorance.

---

MysticKnight:  Is not the following by LFC not an accurate summary of your argument?

He doesn’t seem to care that his argument is fallacious, does he?  He just...feels the truth, and expects that to be enough for the rest of humanity.

LadyForCamus, the truth is you do have to give up ALOT to follow the truth, but it's worth it. I guarantee if you follow it will manifest it's wonders and majestic path.

And like Little Rik always tells you,  conscious is alive and that is something you can never escape as you constantly witness that.

The brain cannot create life, it's a way of God connecting the physical world to the spiritual realm, that is all the brain is, it's an interaction encapsulation in this world.

And love believes in value and no it's not false dichotomy that it either proves everything or nothing. Love itself applies to proofs and not even that, but the way they are presented.

Love judges and assesses and values according to truth, and it acts generously past justice (giving everything it's due) and compassionately.

It is what believes in value of human beings, of yourself, and of the greatest to be valued, God.

Guided love is goodness and unguided love is evil, that is all it comes down to, and no one is more unjust than they who follow their desires without guidance from the absolute who gives everything it's identity and form and creation, and guides them through his light.

[Minimalist]

I did not ask you to re-type everything, just give me a link to these threads of proof that you claim.

Tomorrow I will make a thread I will call it 'MysticKnight's Encylopedia of proofs", and I will post links to discussions and also summarize my reflections over why I think my points stand and clarify why I think the arguments stand decisively.

You have no "proof" ( or even evidence.)  What you have is an old book of shitty poetry.  If you choose to believe it that comes under the heading of "your problem."

[Mystic]

Whatever helps you sleep at night Minimalist.

[pocaracas]

Note that no actual "divine appointment" is required to get people to follow; no "divine appointment" is required to write nicely sounding behavioral rules for a society; no "divine appointment" is required for people to perpetuate the belief that the person(s) is(are) "divinely appointed".

A divine appointment and a lack of such divine appointment are formally equivalent to their followers. All they need is to believe that there was a divine appointment.

What you say is essentially true. And I understand that a lot of people claiming to be Prophets or Avatars or Shamans were liars and didn't have proof.

If by "a lot", you mean "everyone", then we are in agreement.

The essential thing is the truth has proofs and firm evidence. 

That it is a religion is evidence enough that the underlying "truth" is false, but believed as true.
A real god would require no religion, no book, no prophet, no nothing but itself.

That's why I keep using the same question: What does god need with a starship?

And while false religions would want you to follow their leaders without proof and clear insight,  the true religion should condemn believing or following without knowledge and challenge all people to bring their proofs if they are truthful.

Any religion should condemn all others as false. DUH!
Look at the first commandment that Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai:
- You shall have no other gods before Me.

A person trying to get others to follow a path without proofs and happens to follow the true religion is making people think the religion has no firm proofs.

And what does God have to with his guides (starship), that is big theme in Quran. Again you act like it didn't discuss this.

I have no interest whatsoever in reading the Quran and finding whatever excuses it makes for the patent absence of a god and the following of, yet again, another man, another prophet, another "starship".

It did. And indeed there are many false Prophets and many false leaders, but this doesn't negate that God can prove his guidance and manifest it in various degrees.

Usually the manifestation of guidance is not the issue, but, people apathy to know the truth and turn away from proofs by their sheer desires, is the problem.

People want to know, but are required, by all religions, to believe.
As long as belief is a requirement, the religion's claims are to be considered false.

And what God intends with the chosen ones and why he brings them in form of chosen families is the heart of the discussion of the Quran. And how he proves them and how their path is distinct, and how they themselves essentially are the proofs, is a good discussion.

Why don't you show me you understand at least somewhat of the gist of the Quran pertaining to these questions so we can have an actually discussion on knowledge as opposed to all this ignorance.

I have never seen much of the Quran... just like I've never seen much of the bible, nor any other holy text.
The important bits presuppose the existence of a god and are thus irrelevant to ascertaining whether a god exists at all.
The discussions on the chosen ones are, again, just excuses for the patent lack of any god, and how a few take advantage of that through philosophy.

[Mystic]

Seems you aren't interested in a discussion but just rehearsing the same points.

[pocaracas]

Seems you aren't interested in a discussion but just rehearsing the same points.

Clearly, you have nothing to show me beyond "believe and you'll see"... just like all other religions.
Which places your particular belief at exactly the same level as all of those.

[Mystic]

Seems you aren't interested in a discussion but just rehearsing the same points.

Clearly, you have nothing to show me beyond "believe and you'll see"... just like all other religions.
Which places your particular belief at exactly the same level as all of those.

If you want to really believe that, but I won't confirm it. Rather I testify God proved himself through his proofs and rehearsed his signs unto humans through an instance of his proof.