Christianity a scam?

[Catholic_Lady]

Didn't the Heavens Gate followers suffer the same fate? I could name others. It's not that special.

You and Gentleman Bastard missed CL's point entirely. The disciples would have gone to their death knowing of their fraud. Heaven's Gates and Muslims do not know of any fraud. Apples and oranges.

Yeah this is what I was telling Min too.

[Mister Agenda]

Christianity can be used as a scam, I'm pretty sure that's the case for Joel Osteen and his ilk, but I don't think it started that way, or is practiced that way by most Christians.

[brewer]

Didn't the Heavens Gate followers suffer the same fate? I could name others. It's not that special.

You and Gentleman Bastard missed CL's point entirely. The disciples would have gone to their death knowing of their fraud. Heaven's Gates and Muslims do not know of any fraud. Apples and oranges.

The Heavens Gate followers didn't believe that Applewhite was a fraud at the time of their death. What, the jesus followers couldn't have been taken in either? I never said scam, I said false memories and the people with the pens intentionally false entries.

[Catholic_Lady]

You and Gentleman Bastard missed CL's point entirely. The disciples would have gone to their death knowing of their fraud. Heaven's Gates and Muslims do not know of any fraud. Apples and oranges.

The Heavens Gate followers didn't believe that Applewhite was a fraud at the time of their death. What, the jesus followers couldn't have been taken in either? I never said scam, I said false memories and the people with the pens intentionally false entries.

The OP claimed that Jesus and his followers staged all the miracles. I was saying that if they staged everything and knew Jesus was a fraud, it doesn't make much sense that they'd all die for him.

[Minimalist]

What about the miracles of Vespasian?  Here we have the account of the noted historian, P. Cornelius Tacitus:

81. In the course of the months which Vespasian spent at Alexandria, waiting for the regular season of summer winds when the sea could be relied upon, (1) many miracles occurred. These seemed to be indications that Vespasian enjoyed heaven's blessing and that the gods showed a certain leaning towards him. Among the lower classes at Alexandria was a blind man whom everybody knew as such. One day this fellow threw himself at Vespasian's feet, imploring him with groans to heal his blindness. He had been told to make this request by Serapis, the favourite god of a nation much addicted to strange beliefs. He asked that it might please the emperor to anoint his cheeks and eyeballs with the water of his mouth. A second petitioner, who suffered from a withered hand, pleaded his case too, also on the advice of Serapis: would Caesar tread upon him with the imperial foot? At first Vespasian laughed at them and refused. When the two insisted, he hesitated. At one moment he was alarmed by the thought that he would be accused of vanity if he failed. At the next, the urgent appeals of the two victims and the flatteries of his entourage made him sanguine of success. Finally he asked the doctors for an opinion whether blindness and atrophy of this sort were curable by human means. The doctors were eloquent on the various possibilities. The blind man's vision was not completely destroyed, and if certain impediments were removed his sight would return. The other victim's limb had been dislocated, but could be put right by correct treatment. Perhaps this was the will of the gods, they added; perhaps the emperor had been chosen to perform a miracle. Anyhow, if a cure were effected, the credit would go to the ruler; if it failed, the poor wretches would have to bear the ridicule. So Vespasian felt that his destiny gave him the key to every door and that nothing now defied belief. With a smiling expression and surrounded by an expectant crowd of bystanders, he did what was asked. Instantly the cripple recovered the use of his hand and the light of day dawned again upon his blind companion. Both these incidents are still vouched for by eye-witnesses, though there is now nothing to be gained by lying.

Histories, Bk IV

[Succubus]

Sounds a bit conspiracy theoryist to me.

Imho, it makes more sense to think the miracles were made up somehow and never actually happened than to think they were all staged in some sort of elaborate hoax.

Furthermore Jesus' disciples willingly died horrible deaths for Him. I don't see them having done so if they thought he was a fraud.

You've just shot yourself in the foot. The keystone of the Christian religion is the miracle of Jesus resurrection, without the resurrection he was just an ordinary man, not divine and therefore the story of Christianity must be made up nonsense. But then we already know that.
As for the disciples, so what? There's never been a shortage of idiots prepared to die for a cause.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Didn't the Heavens Gate followers suffer the same fate? I could name others. It's not that special.

You and Gentleman Bastard missed CL's point entirely. The disciples would have gone to their death knowing of their fraud. Heaven's Gates and Muslims do not know of any fraud. Apples and oranges.

The Paul character admitted that he was full of BS and he even gave a simple method to prove that he was spewing BS.

In 1 Corinthians chapter 15 Paul said that if the dead are not resurrected then Christ didn't rise and that he was just preaching BS and your faith is worthless.  Christianity is based upon there being a zombie Jesus.  Christianity is based upon 1 Corinthians chapter 15.  While there are a lot of zombies in horror movies they simply don't exist in reality.

Now you, as a reasonably intelligent adult, can you tell us how many actual zombies have you seen firsthand?  If you have never experienced zombies firsthand then your faith is worthless.  Paul said so.

[Ravenshire]

Didn't the Heavens Gate followers suffer the same fate? I could name others. It's not that special.

You and Gentleman Bastard missed CL's point entirely. The disciples would have gone to their death knowing of their fraud. Heaven's Gates and Muslims do not know of any fraud. Apples and oranges.

If anyone's missing a point, it's you, so I'll spell it out for you. Just because people die for a belief doesn't make it true. Your position carries the additional burden of first proving the disciples even existed.

[Catholic_Lady]

You and Gentleman Bastard missed CL's point entirely. The disciples would have gone to their death knowing of their fraud. Heaven's Gates and Muslims do not know of any fraud. Apples and oranges.

If anyone's missing a point, it's you, so I'll spell it out for you. Just because people die for a belief doesn't make it true. Your position carries the additional burden of first proving the disciples even existed.

No. We aren't saying bc they died for it that it happened. We are saying bc they died for it they obviously didn't think it was a hoax that they were supposedly part of.

[Succubus]

If anyone's missing a point, it's you, so I'll spell it out for you. Just because people die for a belief doesn't make it true. Your position carries the additional burden of first proving the disciples even existed.

No. We aren't saying bc they died for it that it happened. We are saying bc they died for it they obviously didn't think it was a hoax that they were supposedly part of.

Holy non sequitur. Are the followers of the Joseph Smith scam aware that it's all a con?