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Why does it have to be government vs market?
#11
RE: Why does it have to be government vs market?
I thought that's what you meant, and I agree.
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#12
RE: Why does it have to be government vs market?
I think I'll take a centrist position. To much of all one thing leads to problems. The balancing act may be difficult, but preferred.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#13
RE: Why does it have to be government vs market?
Sorry vulcanlogician, but that is PF Chang's Crispy Walnut SHRIMP with melon. I'd hazard a guess though, even folks not fond of shrimp might still love this fantastic creation.

I'm really tickled to have my appetite coming back, unfortunately, with hinky flu shots this year, still can't leave the house.

Poo !!

Oh, and don't forget the lettuce wraps !!!
 The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it. 




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#14
RE: Why does it have to be government vs market?
(December 29, 2017 at 8:50 am)mh.brewer Wrote: I think I'll take a centrist position. To much of all one thing leads to problems. The balancing act may be difficult, but preferred.

100% agree. You obviously need a balance. It's just a matter of finding where that balance lies. Too much regulation actually favors these giant corporations, as they are the only ones who can afford the lawyers and whatever else you need to comply. That's a truth that left wing people often seem to miss. Hyper regulation favors corporations over small business, who just can't afford to comply.

Too little and you have chaos, over competition and just plain stupid shit like a different cell phone charger for every phone. That's where hardcore libertarians miss the mark completely. There are so many market failures where regulation helps. Often times these libertarians will start out a sentence "so imagine everybody is behaving rationally with their own self interest. " I can't even imagine one person behaving rationally! If your system needs human beings to act like they don't actually behave (communism and libertarianism share this trait actually) then it just isn't going to work. Also the environmental concerns, obviously.

I consider myself a pragmatic libertarian. People should have the maximum amount of freedom while we have enough regulation to protect the environment, health and safety of the population. And regulation to protect consumers from their own poor decisions, ie the subprime mortgage crisis.
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#15
RE: Why does it have to be government vs market?
(December 29, 2017 at 1:14 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I consider myself a pragmatic libertarian.  People should have the maximum amount of freedom while we have enough regulation to protect the environment, health and safety of the population. And regulation to protect consumers from their own poor decisions,  ie the subprime mortgage crisis.

I've always liked libertarians. I'm not one, but there are two things I like about you guys

1) Your ideology is principled and sensical.
2) I agree with you on drug legalization and social issues.

One criticism that I've always aimed at libertarians is that they do not seem to produce many moderate candidates. They're always these balls-to-the-wall "no government" people. Nice to see a "pragmatic libertarian"... it makes sense.

The only point of contention have is that free market capitalism is exploitative in nature. Sure, it puts products on the shelves and money in people's hands. But left unmodified, capitalism has shown again and again that it prioritizes useless trinkets over human welfare. Add to that its propensity to overproduce and create economic crises, and you have something of a disaster when you calculate the human cost. I think we should do everything we can to ensure that working class families live with dignity. Also my comments about development made earlier in the thread apply here.

If a given solution to capitalism is more problematic than capitalism, this is no good either. But I have a problem valuing a system which values production and consumption over human welfare. Inasmuch as we can improve upon capitalism, we ought to. And I wholeheartedly disagree with the motto, "the freer the markets, the freer the people."
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#16
RE: Why does it have to be government vs market?
(December 29, 2017 at 9:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(December 29, 2017 at 1:14 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I consider myself a pragmatic libertarian.  People should have the maximum amount of freedom while we have enough regulation to protect the environment, health and safety of the population. And regulation to protect consumers from their own poor decisions,  ie the subprime mortgage crisis.

I've always liked libertarians. I'm not one, but there are two things I like about you guys

1) Your ideology is principled and sensical.
2) I agree with you on drug legalization and social issues.

One criticism that I've always aimed at libertarians is that they do not seem to produce many moderate candidates. They're always these balls-to-the-wall "no government" people. Nice to see a "pragmatic libertarian"... it makes sense.

The only point of contention have is that free market capitalism is exploitative in nature. Sure, it puts products on the shelves and money in people's hands. But left unmodified, capitalism has shown again and again that it prioritizes useless trinkets over human welfare. Add to that its propensity to overproduce and create economic crises, and you have something of a disaster when you calculate the human cost. I think we should do everything we can to ensure that working class families live with dignity. Also my comments about development made earlier in the thread apply here.

If a given solution to capitalism is more problematic than capitalism, this is no good either. But I have a problem valuing a system which values production and consumption over human welfare. Inasmuch as we can improve upon capitalism, we ought to. And I wholeheartedly disagree with the motto, "the freer the markets, the freer the people."

Everyone is a libertarian when it comes to themselves, nobody wants their own behavior to be regulated.. It's just a matter of extending that to other people ad well. I also reject the notion that socially liberal and socially libertarian are really that similar. Liberals want to force people to bake cakes they don't want to and all kinds of crazy shit. Liberals and Libertarians might both be pro-choice, but liberals are always in favor of thw government endorsing and funding abortion.
Very different! Same with legal weed. The liberal approach is tax and regulate. This has totally driven small weed farmers out of business and replaced it with mega corporate agri-grows.

To see left-wing people rail against corporations when their system so clearly favors them is baffling to me . If you don't like corporations controlling everything, stop promoting a system that favors them. Why left wing people cant see that a tax and regulate system favors mega corporations is beyond me.

In college I was a hardcore libertarian and a funny thing made me rethink the entire philosophy, which was the hell that was cell phone chargers before the government stepped in to regulate them. I realized that the free market failed when it came to cell phone chargers, which opened my mind to all the other market failures. I'm sure the Ayn Rand types would not call me a libertarian. But they need to completely ignore the real world to keep their beliefs, so that's where pragmatism comes in.

All belief systems, whether you are a liberal, conservative or libertarian need to be grounded in what works in real life. If your theory doesn't have the results you hypothesis said, then you need to adjust. Also there are a lot of different people in the world. Some people operate best with a free market and some people are happiest with socialism. So obviously you need a mix of the two. If something works better when run by the government (normally really big things, like roads or *gasp* healthcare, you need to let the government run it. If it works better run by the market, say like food distribution and supermarkets, like the private sector do it.)
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