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Share your worldview?
#91
RE: Share your worldview?
In case of afterlives and propositional logic it's a proof by derived contradiction as well.  The afterlife proposition implies (frankly..requires) something of human consciousness that we know to be untrue of human consciousness, therefore we know that the afterlife proposition is untrue regardless of what we don't know about human consciousness (or death).

This is why I've never understood why people says things like "we don't know what happens after we die" as a response to the afterlife proposition. OFC we do. It's just as well demonstrated as any other biological fact. It's as if we're entertaining the notion that the entirety of human sensory apparatus is redundant, unnecessary, and uninformative as to nature of human sensory experience.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#92
RE: Share your worldview?
(February 6, 2018 at 3:26 pm)psalm531 Wrote: Great responses - very helpful and well argued! I appreciate it.

All in all, quite interesting and a lot of similarities. I need to do some deeper thinking on a lot of what was said, but a couple questions do jump out -

1) How do you deal with the idea of ceasing to exist after death - or doesn't it bother you?
2) How do you explain what could be considered evidence of intelligent design (such as DNA) - or the statistical improbability we could have happened by random occurrence.

Another is - Can you explain why you became an atheist? But that could easily be a topic for another thread.

On 2 we didn't hapen by chance. We evolved to adapt to our surrounding environment. Your fundagepical "goddidit" is closer to randombess than evolution.
Urbs Antiqua Fuit Studiisque Asperrima Belli

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#93
RE: Share your worldview?
If you know the mass of Jupiter is NOT 1kg, that doesn't mean the exact mass is knowable. It is possible to have *some* knowledge, but still not have 100% certainty in the value.

It is simply not the case that knowledge is an all-or-nothing proposition. I can know that Jupiter is more massive than Saturn and not know the mass of either. I can know the value of the mass to 3 decimal places, but not to 9. That means the knowledge of the mass is not 100% certain.

But even more, we may be able to say that the data is *consistent* with a zero spatial curvature in the universe and that there are good theoretical reasons to think it is zero, but we still do not have 100% certainty the curvature is zero.

For that matter, unless you can be 100% sure you don't live in the Matrix, you cannot be 100% sure that chair you sit on is real.

Uncertainty is part of living in the real world. ALL measurements have error bars on them.
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#94
RE: Share your worldview?
(February 7, 2018 at 9:12 am)polymath257 Wrote: If you know the mass of Jupiter is NOT 1kg, that doesn't mean the exact mass is knowable. It is possible to have *some* knowledge, but still not have 100% certainty in the value.

It is simply not the case that knowledge is an all-or-nothing proposition. I can know that Jupiter is more massive than Saturn and not know the mass of either. I can know the value of the mass to 3 decimal places, but not to 9. That means the knowledge of the mass is not 100% certain.

But even more, we may be able to say that the data is *consistent* with a zero spatial curvature in the universe and that there are good theoretical reasons to think it is zero, but we still do not have 100% certainty the curvature is zero.

For that matter, unless you can be 100% sure you don't live in the Matrix, you cannot be 100% sure that chair you sit on is real.

Uncertainty is part of living in the real world. ALL measurements have error bars on them.

It means that the truth status of the proposition "The mass of jupiter is 1kg" is knowable.  Are you uncertain in that value?  

Knowledge is a binary proposition in conditional statements by definition, that's just a function of propositional logic in conditional statements.  Your confidence in the underlying assumptions of a conditional statement may not be.  If you know that jupiter is more massive than saturn that's another binary proclamation of knowledge, regardless of whether or not you know the exact mass of either.  That you don't is two more binary proclamations of knowledge.  That uncertainty is part of living in the real world..another binary proclamation of knowledge.

None of these examples of uncertainty, or the acknowledgement that -these- measurements have error bars...however, speak to any point of contention in any propositional statement regarding afterlives.  For this reason, in regards to that conditional statement..they are uninformative.  Making the entire post a false analogy if leveraged in that regard (also a binary statement of knowledge - of invalid argumentative structure).

Riding over and above and around all of that, is that there is no requirement of complete knowledge in logic in order to determine the truth status of some specific conditional statement. Such a requirement would be irrational, as we can never know if we have such knowledge anyway. We don't know what we don't know. The only point of contention that would be informative..in summary of all of the above..however, is whether or not the truth status of the afterlife proposition is one of those things, or even remotely like the unknown exact mass of a planet.

What do you think? Is the status of human experience beyond death fundamentally unknowable? Are you less than confident in the underlying propositions which describe our understanding of human consciousness? Is an afterlife meaningfully and sufficiently similar to the mass of a planet..such that a valid and informative comparison might be drawn between them..and that some true thing regarding one would be equally true of the other? Did the existence of any listed uncertainty prevent you from making binary proclamations of knowledge, and is your insistence that you do not know the exact mass of some planet anything other than a binary proclamation of knowledge?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#95
RE: Share your worldview?
Will psalm come back?
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#96
RE: Share your worldview?
Meh, I'm not expecting substantive conversation even if he does...that's why it's on us to scare one up.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#97
RE: Share your worldview?
Hey, I'd be happy to help. Although you probably already found someone.
I'll answer the questions just in case.
Where we came from?
We don't know and probably never will. It might be a coincidence that we are here. We are made of matter, maybe matter and energy has always been here. I do believe(based on scientific evidence) that the earth in particular was formed because gravity caused a bunch matter to come together. But where did the universe come from, I don't think I'll ever know.
Mortality?
When I die, I think all that will happen is that my consciousness will end. I am not a soul, I am my body. So I have no soul to go to an afterlife with. When my body stops working, I will lose all awareness.
Destiny?
Life is delightfully random. I don't think anything was predestined to happen.
And the general meaning of life?
That's up to the person living it. We create our own meaning, because we're the only person it means anything to. There is no long-term meaning for all of life's existence. Each individual life has meaning of its own, and that meaning is determined by the life form experiencing it.
The bugle sounds as the charge begins

But on this battlefield no one wins

- Iron Maiden, The Trooper
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#98
RE: Share your worldview?
(February 7, 2018 at 9:12 am)polymath257 Wrote: If you know the mass of Jupiter is NOT 1kg, that doesn't mean the exact mass is knowable. It is possible to have *some* knowledge, but still not have 100% certainty in the value.

It is simply not the case that knowledge is an all-or-nothing proposition. I can know that Jupiter is more massive than Saturn and not know the mass of either. I can know the value of the mass to 3 decimal places, but not to 9. That means the knowledge of the mass is not 100% certain.

But even more, we may be able to say that the data is *consistent* with a zero spatial curvature in the universe and that there are good theoretical reasons to think it is zero, but we still do not have 100% certainty the curvature is zero.

For that matter, unless you can be 100% sure you don't live in the Matrix, you cannot be 100% sure that chair you sit on is real.

Uncertainty is part of living in the real world. ALL measurements have error bars on them.

Are you confusing mass and weight?  https://www.reference.com/science/differ...rQuestions
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#99
RE: Share your worldview?
(February 7, 2018 at 11:35 am)Khemikal Wrote: Meh, I'm not expecting substantive conversation even if he does...that's why it's on us to scare one up.

Are we talking about a hunt?

It's tourist season here and I've already been warned away from several tourist hunting grounds...
Dying to live, living to die.
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RE: Share your worldview?
(February 13, 2018 at 8:18 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:
(February 7, 2018 at 9:12 am)polymath257 Wrote: If you know the mass of Jupiter is NOT 1kg, that doesn't mean the exact mass is knowable. It is possible to have *some* knowledge, but still not have 100% certainty in the value.

It is simply not the case that knowledge is an all-or-nothing proposition. I can know that Jupiter is more massive than Saturn and not know the mass of either. I can know the value of the mass to 3 decimal places, but not to 9. That means the knowledge of the mass is not 100% certain.

But even more, we may be able to say that the data is *consistent* with a zero spatial curvature in the universe and that there are good theoretical reasons to think it is zero, but we still do not have 100% certainty the curvature is zero.

For that matter, unless you can be 100% sure you don't live in the Matrix, you cannot be 100% sure that chair you sit on is real.

Uncertainty is part of living in the real world. ALL measurements have error bars on them.

Are you confusing mass and weight?  https://www.reference.com/science/differ...rQuestions

Nope. I'm very well aware of the difference.

Weight is a force. In MKS units, it would be measured in Newtons. Mass is, well, mass, and is measured in kilograms.
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