Just had my first proper lucid dream

[emjay]

I understand you could be skeptical if you've never experienced one, cos it does sound kind of wooish, but if you're interested in any of the research on it, the book I mentioned above describes it... where for instance the dreaming research subjects have a pre-arranged signal... moving their eyes... to inform the researcher that they're in the lucid dream state; so that's people under clinical observation sleeping, communicating with the outside world from within the dream state, using the limited physical actions available to them in that state. That demonstrates at least the lucid part... of having wakeful lucidity in the dream state because it not only requires a conscious decision to make that attempt to communicate, but also requires remembering something from waking life... ie the pre-arranged signal. But as to the actual control over the content of the dream, I guess that's not something that can be as easily demonstrated, so again, if you're skeptical, I guess it's something you won't truly believe until you experience it for yourself. All I know is that it's the coolest thing in the world to me, but I understand you can't take my word for it

Oh no, i've had one or two. I just couldn't tell if they were truly lucid or if i dreamt i was having a lucid dream. Iffen that makes sense

Ah right, I see (I think ). That sounds kind of like a Descartes type question... an extension of how can you tell the difference between waking life and a dream, and ultimately can you? But applied to lucid dreams vs normal dreams, I think one of the techniques the book teaches might be helpful in trying to identify what the differences are: one thing the book suggests is to keep a log of your normal dreams and from within that, identify certain 'dream signs'... which you then try to turn into a conscious habit to look for in waking life, in the hope that that habit persists when you are asleep and dreaming; in other words the equivalent of learning a habit of reality testing saying essentially 'am I dreaming?', which if answered in the affirmative in the dream would make you lucid. Another more generic example of a dream sign would just be things like the fact that numbers never stay the same in dreams; look at your watch twice in a dream and it would show completely different times, but not so in reality. So, that's one difference between the dream world and the real world... consistency. So from that it seems to me that the difference between reality, normal dreams, and lucid dreams is not in your consciousness per se (ie if the only difference between a normal dream and a lucid dream is that you're aware it's a dream)... in all of them you have your conscious faculties in operation but in the first two, you take your environment for granted, but in the latter you don't. That seems a pretty good way of differentiating it to me; in the first two, you take the world you're presented with as real and external to you (ie outside your control) and thus think and act within its constraints... after all, you don't question whether reality is a dream either (unless in Descartes mode ) so if a normal dream is likewise taken for granted, there'd be no reason from within the dream to question it either... so the only difference then is the possibilities opened up by becoming aware it's a dream; the same conscious awareness and thought processes in play as in the other two cases but with the added knowledge that it's a dream and the implications of that.

[Athene]

Yes, I read a how-to book as a teen and have since been having lucid dreams on a regular basis for many years, without actually wanting or trying to. The focus/concentration required to maintain that state generally makes it difficult for me to find lucid dreams particularly fulfilling or enjoyable, or to have much of a sense of them feeling real". So now, I just make a conscious effort to remember NOT TO CONTINUE make a conscious effort to remember that I'm dreaming, so that I can manage to stay asleep..and yes, that is as difficult as it sounds. It's a fucking mess. 

All it really "does" for me, is disrupt my sleep cycle several nights a week. If I know that would've been my eventual outcome, I never would've bothered figuring out how to do it. 
Not worth it, in my experience.

[emjay]

Yes, I read a how-to book as a teen and have since been having lucid dreams on a regular basis for many years, without actually wanting or trying to. The focus/concentration required to maintain that state generally makes it difficult for me to find lucid dreams particularly fulfilling or enjoyable, or to have much of a sense of them feeling real". So now, I just make a conscious effort to remember NOT TO CONTINUE make a conscious effort to remember that I'm dreaming, so that I can manage to stay asleep..and yes, that is as difficult as it sounds. It's a fucking mess. 

All it really "does" for me, is disrupt my sleep cycle several nights a week. If I know that would've been my eventual outcome, I never would've bothered figuring out how to do it. 
Not worth it, in my experience.

Wow, I never thought there could be a downside to it... other than the fact that it does go with broken sleep. I'm sorry it's causing you so much grief

Tbh I was too lazy to get into the whole dream signs thing... and didn't have much faith in being able to remember my dreams every night for the sake of finding them. So mine have always been more of a consolation for bad sleep rather than something I've gone out of my way to achieve... the most I've done to deliberately try to get them is to set an alarm to interrupt my sleep... but only once in a while.

[Athene]

Wow, I never thought there could be a downside to it... other than the fact that it does go with broken sleep. I'm sorry it's causing you so much grief

Tbh I was too lazy to get into the whole dream signs thing... and didn't have much faith in being able to remember my dreams every night for the sake of finding them. So mine have always been more of a consolation for bad sleep rather than something I've gone out of my way to achieve... the most I've done to deliberately try to get them is to set an alarm to interrupt my sleep... but only once in a while.

Well, at least I gleaned a invaluable lesson in all of this: Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. 

Speaking of dream signs, my sleep disruption problem got considerably worse after I became employed and very proficient at my current job several years ago. My primary nursing duty at this place is auditing medical charts and medication administration records for compliance. I'm inclined to believe that spending hours upon hours pouring over records in search of inconsistencies, errors, and such, somehow made me much more adept at recognizing when things are "amiss" in my dream state...And it fuggin' BLOWS!

Just a theory, of course. Seems plausible though.

[Whateverist]

No biggie, I even have lurid dreams when I'm awake sometimes.

[emjay]

Wow, I never thought there could be a downside to it... other than the fact that it does go with broken sleep. I'm sorry it's causing you so much grief

Tbh I was too lazy to get into the whole dream signs thing... and didn't have much faith in being able to remember my dreams every night for the sake of finding them. So mine have always been more of a consolation for bad sleep rather than something I've gone out of my way to achieve... the most I've done to deliberately try to get them is to set an alarm to interrupt my sleep... but only once in a while.

Well, at least I gleaned a invaluable lesson in all of this: Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. 

Hehe. Or 'everything in moderation'?

Speaking of dream signs, my sleep disruption problem got considerably worse after I became employed and very proficient at my current job several years ago. My primary nursing duty at this place is auditing medical charts and medication administration records for compliance. I'm inclined to believe that spending hours upon hours pouring over records in search of inconsistencies, errors, and such, somehow made me much more adept at recognizing when things are "amiss" in my dream state...And it fuggin' BLOWS!

Just a theory, of course. Seems plausible though.

Yeah, that definitely sounds plausible.

Hopefully there's a way to undo its effects though. I read in that book that in theory it shouldn't tire you out any more than not being lucid... ie to be 'awake' and aware in your dream is something we might intuitively think would be tiring - since mental tiredness is one of the reasons we go to sleep in the first place - but if what I suggested above is right... that there's no difference in mental effort as it were between normal dreaming and lucid dreaming, just a difference in where you put your attention and how you use your thinking; in a normal dream you expend your mental energy running away from the monster but in the lucid dream you expend that same energy differently, in a more meta way, choosing to wave away the monster with your will and replace it with whatever you want (a bit like the Matrix when Neo finally realises his true power and instead of letting the matrix dictate the terms, he controls the matrix... instead of dodging bullets, he just raises his hand and they all drop to the floor... I think actually that's a very good analogy for a lucid dream)... then if all that's right then it should be no more tiring to have lucid dreams than not to... ie just taking it as a given that, aware it's a dream or not, when we're in REM sleep, our consciousness is active. Is that what you've found in your experience? If so, what in particular is the negative effect... ie if its not the dreams themselves that tire us out (whether lucid or not) then what is it... is it for instance the broken sleep... that being aware of it being a dream is perhaps one step closer to being fully awake? Meaning that what you want is to lose that awareness to go back to a lower level as it were, less likely to wake you up? Sorry if I'm stating the obvious... and/or waffling... just trying to get to the bottom of it

Your problem seems a bit similar to the sorts of problems I have with self-hypnosis and meditation, namely letting things go; ie if you become aware of a ticking clock when you're trying not to be aware of a ticking clock then it can be very hard to let go of that awareness, but doing so is the only way to get where you want to be. I'm just wondering if maybe meditation might help?, because that does develop skills in letting go. If you can... easily... let go of the dream awareness when it comes, then maybe it might improve your sleep?

[Athene]

Yeah, that definitely sounds plausible.

---

Hopefully there's a way to undo its effects though. I read in that book that in theory it shouldn't tire you out any more than not being lucid... ie to be 'awake' and aware in your dream is something we might intuitively think would be tiring - since mental tiredness is one of the reasons we go to sleep in the first place - but if what I suggested above is right... that there's no difference in mental effort as it were between normal dreaming and lucid dreaming, just a difference in where you put your attention and how you use your thinking; in a normal dream you expend your mental energy running away from the monster but in the lucid dream you expend that same energy differently, in a more meta way, choosing to wave away the monster with your will and replace it with whatever you want (a bit like the Matrix when Neo finally realises his true power and instead of letting the matrix dictate the terms, he controls the matrix... instead of dodging bullets, he just raises his hand and they all drop to the floor... I think actually that's a very good analogy for a lucid dream)... then if all that's right then it should be no more tiring to have lucid dreams than not to... ie just taking it as a given that, aware it's a dream or not, when we're in REM sleep, our consciousness is active. Is that what you've found in your experience? If so, what in particular is the negative effect... ie if its not the dreams themselves that tire us out (whether lucid or not) then what is it... is it for instance the broken sleep... that being aware of it being a dream is perhaps one step closer to being fully awake? Meaning that what you want is to lose that awareness to go back to a lower level as it were, less likely to wake you up? Sorry if I'm stating the obvious... and/or waffling... just trying to get to the bottom of it

Your problem seems a bit similar to the sorts of problems I have with self-hypnosis and meditation, namely letting things go; ie if you become aware of a ticking clock when you're trying not to be aware of a ticking clock then it can be very hard to let go of that awareness, but doing so is the only way to get where you want to be. I'm just wondering if maybe meditation might help?, because that does develop skills in letting go. If you can... easily... let go of the dream awareness when it comes, then maybe it might improve your sleep?

---

Hey...you're a shrink, aren't you? 
Just how much are you charging me for all of this?

If I understand your question(s) correctly, then my answer is yes, it is the awareness that I am dreaming that causes me to wake up. Not the content of my dreams/mental energy involved.
I've suffered from insomnia from as far back as I can remember (the excuse I always gave my mother as a wee child was "My brain keeps being busy...I can't!"). And if I take prescription or OTC sleep medication/antihistamines, of course, lucid dreaming doesn't occur at all. But I avoid using medication on a regular basis, because of the associated temporary short-term memory loss/"hangover" effects, and my job requiring a great deal of clarity and focus...which also stands be impaired by inadequate sleep. And round and round we go.

Perhaps meditation could improve my situation. Doubt it could hurt it, at least. 
Might as well give it a try. Thanks, emjay!

[emjay]

Yeah, that definitely sounds plausible.

---

Hopefully there's a way to undo its effects though. I read in that book that in theory it shouldn't tire you out any more than not being lucid... ie to be 'awake' and aware in your dream is something we might intuitively think would be tiring - since mental tiredness is one of the reasons we go to sleep in the first place - but if what I suggested above is right... that there's no difference in mental effort as it were between normal dreaming and lucid dreaming, just a difference in where you put your attention and how you use your thinking; in a normal dream you expend your mental energy running away from the monster but in the lucid dream you expend that same energy differently, in a more meta way, choosing to wave away the monster with your will and replace it with whatever you want (a bit like the Matrix when Neo finally realises his true power and instead of letting the matrix dictate the terms, he controls the matrix... instead of dodging bullets, he just raises his hand and they all drop to the floor... I think actually that's a very good analogy for a lucid dream)... then if all that's right then it should be no more tiring to have lucid dreams than not to... ie just taking it as a given that, aware it's a dream or not, when we're in REM sleep, our consciousness is active. Is that what you've found in your experience? If so, what in particular is the negative effect... ie if its not the dreams themselves that tire us out (whether lucid or not) then what is it... is it for instance the broken sleep... that being aware of it being a dream is perhaps one step closer to being fully awake? Meaning that what you want is to lose that awareness to go back to a lower level as it were, less likely to wake you up? Sorry if I'm stating the obvious... and/or waffling... just trying to get to the bottom of it

Your problem seems a bit similar to the sorts of problems I have with self-hypnosis and meditation, namely letting things go; ie if you become aware of a ticking clock when you're trying not to be aware of a ticking clock then it can be very hard to let go of that awareness, but doing so is the only way to get where you want to be. I'm just wondering if maybe meditation might help?, because that does develop skills in letting go. If you can... easily... let go of the dream awareness when it comes, then maybe it might improve your sleep?

---

Hey...you're a shrink, aren't you? 
Just how much are you charging me for all of this?

Nope, not a shrink, just a psychology buff But if you still wanna pay me I won't say no

Seriously though, I'm not sure if you were joking with that? I've just always been interested in psychology and neuroscience... the mind to me is the biggest and most interesting puzzle to solve... but only as a layman... so just in case you weren't joking, please don't take whatever I said as anything more than a layman's personal opinion, hoping it might help a friend

If I understand your question(s) correctly, then my answer is yes, it is the awareness that I am dreaming that causes me to wake up. Not the content of my dreams/mental energy involved.
I've suffered from insomnia from as far back as I can remember (the excuse I always gave my mother as a wee child was "My brain keeps being busy...I can't!"). And if I take prescription or OTC sleep medication/antihistamines, of course, lucid dreaming doesn't occur at all. But I avoid using medication on a regular basis, because of the associated temporary short-term memory loss/"hangover" effects, and my job requiring a great deal of clarity and focus...which also stands be impaired by inadequate sleep. And round and round we go.

Perhaps meditation could improve my situation. Doubt it could hurt it, at least. 
Might as well give it a try. Thanks, emjay!

Cool I really hope it works for you and helps. It definitely helped me a lot with learning to let go of thoughts... for instance in meditation you have lots of feelings of boredom etc when you're first starting you'd rather be doing something else or you're waiting the timer to run out... but with practice you just kind of learn to let them pass through instead of 'clinging' to them and feeding them... just become more detached from them. So hopefully roughly the same thing can apply in a dream state... allowing the awareness of the dream to pass through, or at least reduce the amount of attention you give it

[Athene]

Nope, not a shrink, just a psychology buff  But if you still wanna pay me I won't say no

Seriously though, I'm not sure if you were joking with that? I've just always been interested in psychology and neuroscience... the mind to me is the biggest and most interesting puzzle to solve... but only as a layman... so just in case you weren't joking, please don't take whatever I said as anything more than a layman's personal opinion, hoping it might help a friend

Actually, I did seem to remember you as being a psych student for some reason, probably as you are indeed quite knowledgeable. But yeah, I was just kidding around in regards to you acting in a professional capacity as a shrink. 

In other words...
I am NOT paying you, man. Quit PM'ing me invoices!

Just kidding, folks.

[Mr.Obvious]

I get them. I usually just realize I'm lucid and go flying around, since I love to fly in dreams.

I got them a lot when I was using the patch to quit smoking. Makes me want to do it again.

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You know, i'm not really sure i. Believe in lucid dreams. I'm willing to believe, without question, that in Some dreams people believe they have control over their dreams. I've had dream where i realized i was dreaming. But did i really realize it, or was i dreaming that i realized it and had, for that fleeting moment, control? And how could we differentiate between having control in a lucid dream or dreaming that we are lucid dreaming?

I was pretty surprised when I ran up against lucid dreaming skepticism. It was weird because I know I've had them. I know they exist. I know anyone can have them. If you're dreaming that you realized you're dreaming, then you are aware you're dreaming.

Is it that weird? Sceptics, i think, tend not to take testimony or in my case personal experience, as valid evidence for claims.
I've had one or two myself, but i try not to let those experiences gain too much weight. I once believed I'd seen jesus christ when i was a kid. I now no longer judge that experience to have been in agreement with reality. Similar with those dreams. I can't be certain if i misremembzred my dream as i've always wanted lucid dreams or if my subconcious wasn't in control The entire time rather than conciously being in control.
I've Bern offered Some cool info on The subject, perhaps if i have time, i'll delve into it. In The end though it doesn't really matter all that much. Because even if you subconcious dreams you are dreaming you are in control rather than your conscious being active in your dream, The experience is still there. All that i'm unsure off is The accuracy of exactly what we understand it to be.