Evolution

[vulcanlogician]

Not yet.  Teach me.

When the disease become chronic there is nothing you can do granddad.  
This life is gone for you.  
You have only to hope that in the next life you will not screw that up once again like you did with this one.  

One little tip however provide you leave the bottle alone.  
Learn what evolution is all about from LR.
This can help you in the next life immensely.  

Rik, aren't you yogis supposed to be at peace with the world and other people? 

Doesn't the Bhagavad Gita say that even disbelievers worship Brahman, but in an indirect way?

Why do you need everyone to agree with your beliefs?

Focus on the third eye, man. 

[Angrboda]

Do you know why I dismissed what you presented?  Because it wasn't evidence.  You presented two things: bare ass assertions and unsubstantiated analogies.  If I just bare asserted something like "Consciousness ends at death," then you'd dismiss it too.  Bare assertions aren't evidence so I didn't dismiss anything that wasn't worthy of dismissing.  The other thing you presented was lame analogies which are just assertions in a different form.  You claimed that such and so is like X, to which I pointed out that I can equally arbitrarily say that such and so is NOT like X.  All we have is your claim that it's like X.  That's not evidence.  That's just more assertion.  So despite your crying like a whiny bitch, I didn't dismiss anything that didn't deserve dismissal.  And I gave solid reasons for each dismissal.  Each time I rebuffed one of your bare assertions, you immediately changed the subject to something else.  I'm not responsible for the fact that you gave up each time and switched to something else.  

But I'll be nice.  You present one piece of evidence that you presented that you feel was dismissed unfairly and we'll talk about it.  If you're just going to cry about being butthurt over how badly you fared in this discussion though, you can take your attitude and shove it up your ass sideways.  Present one piece of evidence, and we'll discuss it.  Or don't, and continue acting like a loser and whining about being schooled by someone you feel is inferior to you.

Sorry darl.
NDEs are not bare assertions.
They are 100% evidence.
Real people, real accidents, real hospitals, real doctors, real death, real coming back to life and real witnesses so your dismissing is like a fart worth nothing.

Let's recount exactly what was discussed to see whether or not I dismissed NDEs as bare assertion.

1.  You made an argument that God would not "send them back" if reincarnation did not exist (HERE).  At this point I objected that your introducing God without evidence for his existence was logically vapid, and that we only have your bare assertion as to what this God character would or wouldn't do.

2.  In your next post you claimed that Newton's first law of motion was an example of karma, and that the existence of karma demonstrates the existence of God (HERE).  I pointed out that Newton's first law was not in fact an example of karma, but that even if it was, extending laws of motion to a law of moral behaviors required justification beyond simply claiming that it applies equally to motion and moral acts.  You never followed up on this point.

3. You then made the claim that if God did not exist, then the universe would have disintegrated because of "bad luck" long ago (HERE).  I pointed out that things happen in the universe because of "causes" and that "bad luck" was not itself a cause, so you needed to demonstrate a cause that would have resulted in the disintegration of the universe.  You never followed up on that argument either.  This appears to be a common theme with you.  You have all the staying power of a limp dick.

4. What followed next was your post filled with whining and crying about how I arbitrarily dismissed your evidence (HERE).

As we can see from the history of the discussion, at no point did I dismiss NDEs as bare assertion on your part.  So you can take your claim that I did and shove it up your fucking ass.  What I do see is you making several lame arguments, my rebuffing them with good reasons for doing so, and your failing to follow up on your own arguments.  I did not dismiss NDEs nor did I arbitrarily dismiss any argument made.  If you failed to pursue your own arguments, then you have only yourself to blame.  But instead you bounced from topic to topic like a hyperactive child.

But let's set all that aside and look at the argument you originally made which set all this up.

Obviousy NDEs in most cases entails reincarnation.
Why then God would send these people back?
If these people would be ready to be with God right then then God would not send them back.
It is like in this physical-material life that if you still have some work to do you are not ready to get your degree.

Now, even if we ignore the fact that you've introduced a "God" which you have no evidence actually exists, and simply look at your argument, there are still problems to be found.

You claim that the "sent back" theme is evidence that reincarnation exists.  In the first place, this is just your own conjecture about the reason why "God" would send people back.  It's worth noting that this is certainly not the only possible interpretation of why these people are being "sent back."  It's fully consistent with the sent back theme that these people are being sent back, not because it is not time for them to reincarnate, but rather that death in fact entails complete annihilation of an individual and an end to their existence.  In that case they would be being sent back because it is premature for them to be snuffed out altogether.  There is no indication in the NDE accounts that an interpretation of reincarnation fits the facts better than one of annihilation, so your asserting the one rather than the other is purely arbitrary and is based upon your prior beliefs rather than any actual evidence from the NDEs themselves.

Furthermore, it's interesting to note what people from India, the original home of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, have to say about the theme of being sent back.  In Indian NDEs, the person being sent back is typically understood to be the result of a clerical error in the cosmic bureaucracy, that they are being sent back because the death that they are approaching was actually meant for another person (see Near-Death Experiences and Hinduism).  They do not recount anything having to do with karma or reincarnation.  If anybody knows the correct interpretation of the sent back theme you would think it would be Indian Hindus who are steeped in the concepts of karma and reincarnation their whole lives, yet they do not interpret their NDEs in the way you suggest they should be interpreted.

So what we have is your claim about what the correct way to interpret the theme of being sent back is, with no corroboration for your claim from the NDEs themselves or from anywhere else.  I would accept if you were to show that your interpretation is the most probable one, but you can't even do that.  Instead what you have is a claim about the implications of being sent back, which is not corroborated by the NDEs themselves in anyway, and competing explanations that are equally likely.  Even if I accept that the experiences of being sent back are real, this idea that they entail karma/reincarnation is an addition to the evidence from the NDEs themselves which you've added solely because it fits with your prior beliefs.  What you believe independent of the evidence is not itself evidence.

So, yet again, even if I'm extremely charitable toward you here, you have failed to make your case.  Your attempt to provide evidence for the existence of karma and reincarnation is nothing but a colossal failure.  Your claims that I dismissed NDEs are false.  And the notion that I arbitrarily dismissed anything is just a lie.  No, what we see here is you assuming a great deal not in evidence, and providing piss poor support for the things that you do claim.  Your allegations as to what occurred in this discussion are completely unfounded and nothing more than the product of your imagination

Now, all that being said, you have yet to provide good evidence that NDEs are evidence of karma or reincarnation, both of which are required for your idea of the evolution of consciousness to be valid.  Feel free to provide arguments or evidence of either of these.  As far as your claims that I arbitrarily dismissed shit, or that I dismissed NDEs as unreal, you can take both those claims and go fuck yourself.  I did no such thing.


Additionally:

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On top of this we have ex hard and staunch atheists that are now strong theists so you are just fooling yourself     in believing that evidence is not there.

This isn't evidence for either karma or reincarnation, so your complaint here is irrelevant to this discussion.

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[The Valkyrie]

There's definitely a personality disorder here I could write a paper on...

...IF I were so inclined, IF it fell into my particular field, and IF I could be bothered.

I might have a colleague who IS in that field check out these posts, though.

[Angrboda]

More reasons to doubt that NDEs are evidence for karma and reincarnation.

According to IANDS, there are some commonalities to different people's NDEs, even though each NDE is unique. One such commonality is the reasons given for returning to life rather than continuing on into the unknown. According to IANDS, "A reluctance to return to the earthplane, but invariably realizing either their job on earth is not finished or a mission must yet be accomplished before they can return to stay." Nothing to do with Karma or reincarnation. The testimony that NDErs give is that they feel that they had unfinished business back in their life.

Another common theme which contradicts the notion of karma is that NDErs often see deceased loved ones during their NDE. Again according to IANDS, a common theme is, "Encounter with deceased loved ones, possibly sacred figures (the Judges, Jesus, a saint) or unrecognized beings, with whom communication is mind-to-mind; these figures may seem consoling, loving, or terrifying." Now if people are seeing deceased loved ones, obviously those loved ones haven't been reincarnated, otherwise they wouldn't be still deceased. Moreover the tendency to see Jesus in an NDE, which is quite common, would indicate that the Christian conception of life after death is the correct one, and Jesus did not teach karma and reincarnation, he taught that people would go on to live eternally in heaven or hell after death. Nothing about reincarnation into a life in an earthbound existence.

So contrary to your assertion that the theme of being sent back has to do with karma and reincarnation, actual people who have had NDEs tell a different story. You have no evidence from the NDEs themselves or the people who had them that their being sent back had to do with karma and reincarnation. That's simply a conclusion that you added onto the actual evidence for no other reason than that it's something you want to believe. Your wanting to believe in karma and reincarnation is not evidence that these NDE themes indicate karma and reincarnation, only that you want them to mean that. The evidence says that being sent back has an entirely different meaning for actual people who have had an NDE and it isn't karma and reincarnation.

So once again the evidence is against you, and the only thing you have in support of your view is your dogmatic belief that karma and reincarnation are real. But your beliefs aren't themselves evidence, and evidence is what you need to demonstrate your case.

[Ravenshire]

Gotta wonder what happened to Banned. Did he pull a runner at being outed as a POE and a troll, or what?

[The Valkyrie]

Gotta wonder what happened to Banned. Did he pull a runner at being outed as a POE and a troll, or what?

*Hides dripping axe*

*Whistles innocently*

*Leaves thread*

[Amarok]

Take bets on how many socks he starts 

I say 3 before he gives up .

[vulcanlogician]

Banned was a poe? News to me.

Whatever, I could give a fuck about another fundy coming back to spout nonsense. My faith in humanity has been damaged enough already.

[Ravenshire]

Banned was a poe? News to me.

He couldn't get the fundamentals of his own claimed religion right. I was raised SDA (shudders) and know the cult better than he does despite being out for over 30 years. When outed on it, he went full troll, in this very thread. He pulled a runner shortly after I reported his trolling.

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Take bets on how many socks he starts 

I say 3 before he gives up .

He doesn't need socks (yet) as he's banned only in his choice of name, so far. If he returns, I'm sure he'll live up to that name quite quickly.

[Little Rik]

When the disease become chronic there is nothing you can do granddad.  
This life is gone for you.  
You have only to hope that in the next life you will not screw that up once again like you did with this one.  

One little tip however provide you leave the bottle alone.  
Learn what evolution is all about from LR.
This can help you in the next life immensely.  

Hey LR. What karma are you accumulating for hurling all of these insults and invective? By now, it seems to be an awful lot. Yet somehow, you seem unconcerned that you are building up a karmic debt of epic proportions. If you believed what you claim you would not be doing so (or would be stupid for doing so). Seems to me that you don't believe what you claim, else you wouldn't be hurling such evil at people. 

And it is no use resorting to the "they did it too" schoolyard argument. Atheists can insult you all they like, they don't believe what you do so it doesn't matter to them. Even christians and muslims can hurl as much abuse at you as they wish since, in their system of belief neither karma nor reincarnation exist anyway. 

But to you, karma and reincarnation are real and you will have to pay for every scurrilous comment you have made here and wherever else you have done such. Are you willing to pay that much karmic debt?

That is interesting Aba.
Atheists can talk crap as much as they like because there is no karma.
What a smart-brilliant idea Aba you gave me.
Right now I become atheist so karma will not affect me at all.
Gee, I never thought about that Aba.      

Ok, now let us be serious and answer your question.

Obviously you haven't got a clue what karma is all about.
Suppose a policeman say...........that guy driving too fast or driving under the influence of "something" will get killed for sure.
Does the policeman pick up any karma for saying that?
Of course not.
Karma is wishing harm to other people not predicting an obvious result.

The same apply to me.
Why should I build karma for saying the obvious?
I never ever wish any harm to those two guys that said that my mother is  whore.
All I did is to state the obvious.
Anyone engaged in talking very very dirty obviously will lose the awareness in consciousness and in the next life obviously they will not deserve a human body anymore.  

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When the disease become chronic there is nothing you can do granddad.  
This life is gone for you.  
You have only to hope that in the next life you will not screw that up once again like you did with this one.  

One little tip however provide you leave the bottle alone.  
Learn what evolution is all about from LR.
This can help you in the next life immensely.  

Rik, aren't you yogis supposed to be at peace with the world and other people? 

Doesn't the Bhagavad Gita say that even disbelievers worship Brahman, but in an indirect way?

Why do you need everyone to agree with your beliefs?

Focus on the third eye, man. 

My previous post to Aba answer your question as well.
Have a very lovely day brother VL.  

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More reasons to doubt that NDEs are evidence for karma and reincarnation.

According to IANDS, there are some commonalities to different people's NDEs, even though each NDE is unique.  One such commonality is the reasons given for returning to life rather than continuing on into the unknown.  According to IANDS, "A reluctance to return to the earthplane, but invariably realizing either their job on earth is not finished or a mission must yet be accomplished before they can return to stay."  Nothing to do with Karma or reincarnation.  The testimony that NDErs give is that they feel that they had unfinished business back in their life.

Another common theme which contradicts the notion of karma is that NDErs often see deceased loved ones during their NDE.  Again according to IANDS, a common theme is, "Encounter with deceased loved ones, possibly sacred figures (the Judges, Jesus, a saint) or unrecognized beings, with whom communication is mind-to-mind; these figures may seem consoling, loving, or terrifying."  Now if people are seeing deceased loved ones, obviously those loved ones haven't been reincarnated, otherwise they wouldn't be still deceased.   Moreover the tendency to see Jesus in an NDE, which is quite common, would indicate that the Christian conception of life after death is the correct one, and Jesus did not teach karma and reincarnation, he taught that people would go on to live eternally in heaven or hell after death.  Nothing about reincarnation into a life in an earthbound existence.

So contrary to your assertion that the theme of being sent back has to do with karma and reincarnation, actual people who have had NDEs tell a different story.  You have no evidence from the NDEs themselves or the people who had them that their being sent back had to do with karma and reincarnation.  That's simply a conclusion that you added onto the actual evidence for no other reason than that it's something you want to believe.  Your wanting to believe in karma and reincarnation is not evidence that these NDE themes indicate karma and reincarnation, only that you want them to mean that.  The evidence says that being sent back has an entirely different meaning for actual people who have had an NDE and it isn't karma and reincarnation.

So once again the evidence is against you, and the only thing you have in support of your view is your dogmatic belief that karma and reincarnation are real.  But your beliefs aren't themselves evidence, and evidence is what you need to demonstrate your case.

Your confusion is almost total yog.

Being sent back into their body simply means that that particular stage in that particular life is not over yet.
However that does not means that more stages and lives are waiting for that person later on.
It is like when you were at the primary class 1.
Once that stage is completed you would go to the next stage or class 2. (which i doubt you ever completed)

Does IANDS say the opposite?
Of course it doesn't but you automatically deduced something else.      
Now to the other point.
Does really means that to go to heaven after the physical death means stay there for ever?
Of course not in all cases.
Everybody after their physical death go to see God.
Even plants and insects and even rapists and murderers.
Where else would they go?
The non physical dimension is one for all but of course every single being has got a different degree of awareness in consciousness according to their evolutionary stage so obviously those who reach the top of evolution will stay with God and be part of God for ever but those who haven't reach that stage yet they will have to be reincarnated again and again until they reach the sublime stage of human emancipation.

Evidence of all this?
Personally speaking I find the evidence by evolving my consciousness through yoga practices but for you NDEs should be the clear evidence because NDEs are behind contradiction.