Man Named 'Tiffany' Is Dominating Women's Pro Volleyball in Brazil

[A Theist]

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Women's volleyball in Brazil is full of top athletes. Way higher level of competition then c league men in Belgium. It is a small sample size and we are at just the start of trans people competing and we've already seen a disproportionate amount of records crushed. I think that article was full of bigotry and bigoted language, but it made the very valid point that this is going to be the downfall of many womens sports, where biological women won't be able to compete and pro leagues will be stocked with many trans athletes.

You already, just a couple of years in, are starting to see this happen. It's going to be bad for the trans community too, because it's going to make it very hard to argue that they are women just like any other women, when they are playing sports closer to the level of men then women. It'll give infinite ammo to the opponents of trans rights and an undecided person on trans, watching a trans girl bash the brains in of cis gendered girl in a cage fight isn't going to win over hearts and minds. It's going to be detrimental.

Being born a man provides all kinds of advantages to tiffany that she wouldn't of had as a man. For example probably they were average height for the men's league but is a giant amongst the women. Transitioning provided that height, suddenly Tiffany is competing against much shorter people and being weakened by a lack of testosterone did nothing to change that.

It's not the same as a girl being born tall, before that sorry argument is trotted out for the millionth time, because it was artificial means that took away testosterone and let tiff compete against women.

As a side note I'd say the level of athlete in womens volleyball is very high compared to men, because tall athletic men are more likely to persue basketball, where as volleyball is a very popular and well established sport amongst women, especially in Brazil.

Again, people who don't know that much about sports really I think jump to the sides of trans people out of intinct because that's what they always do, but in this case you need blinders on to not see the advantage, and denying it just makes it seem like people value their political opinions more than reality.

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It's just starting, I already have several examples, including all the weightlifting records smashed. Why deny they have an unfair advantage? If you knew a lot about sports, athletics, testosterone and steroids, that would be a difficult position to take. You certainly haven't made an argument that makes me think you do.

A Male to Female trans person would be at a huge disadvantage competing with men. That's why there isn't a single case that I can think of of high level success by such a person, while there are tons the other way. Nor do I think there ever will be. Id be super impressed by such a person as an athlete. I'm okay with that because they don't have any added advantage, unlike trans women. The same as I'm fine with women competing in men's leagues as well. That's upping your level of competition, not lowering it.

Consider that for a moment that these sports success are only F to M, and not the other way around and that should tell you the whole story.

Yep. Having been in cross country and track all through high school and college, the best female in our varsity team was still always *significantly* slower than the slowest male in our varsity team. Its not even close. Now, let that sink in - our fastest female was always much slower than our slowest male. Males have a fundamental physical advantage over females when it comes to these types of things. Not just because of current hormone and chemical makeup, but because of bone density, muscle mass, height, size of body frame, size of heart and lungs, and possibly many other things that have not yet been discovered or identified, but that make up the biophysical differences between male/female.

My husband is not a big dude at all. But when we wrestle around for fun, I can feel just how much stronger he is than me. He can pin down both my arms with one hand, and there is absolutely nothing I can do. It literally feels like he is made out of different "stuff" than myself, and I am completely helpless. Fair or not, thats just the work of evolution - males ARE built to be bigger and stronger and faster than females, period. This fact has made women oppressed throughout history, because outwardly, we are the weaker sex and that made us more vulnerable throughout the stone age and still does so now a days in some ways.

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[henryp]

I'm certain It's already been mentioned, but here it is again: how can a single person dominate in a team sport?  A team wins due to the efforts of the entire team, not due merely to one single team member.

In most team sports, you can almost always funnel your play through one player.  You can also use matchups to use your best player to negate their best player.

An extreme example:  If I'm playing basketball with 6 year olds, I can stand under the basket on offense and shoot, and there's nothing any kids can do about it.  And on defense, I can do the same thing, and block every shot.  

In volleyball, if you have some tall super athletic net presence, you set them up for the kills, and use them to block the other teams best attempts at spiking the ball.  It's not as extreme as me vs. 6yo's in basketball, but it's in the same vein.

Typically, if you have the best player in the league in a sport, you will be at or near the top of the league. 

Baseball would be an example of that being less the case, because you can't have your best hitter hit more than 4 times a game.  And the best pitcher only pitches once every 5 games.  But having them is still a big advantage.

[Shell B]

You would have beaten me. Why should you assume every male can beat every woman. I was never tall or strong. Again, instead of thinking about gender, I think size and weight and ability. A taller bigger man would beat you, if they are good at sports, but that does not mean every male is tall or stronger. I have had females beat me at games before. And I have known females who could even kick my ass.

You are making it about transgender, not me. If it is about skill it is about skill. I could never be even a firefighter, cop or in the military. Lots of females and even transgender do though. 

There is a huge difference between averages and absolutes. Putting an absolute "never" on diverse individuals is not what you should be doing. I feel absolutely no shame in losing to a woman. I would also feel no shame if a female cop or firefighter saved my life. I am not transgender. I am however a smaller male. I am quite sure even back in my 20s someone like the Williams sisters would kick my ass in tennis. And that sport has mixed doubles too. I cant do an overhead serve to save my life.

I just want to point out that she was talking about track athletes, not the general population. Of course she would outrun a lot of men. That doesn't mean she would outrun male track athletes.

[Brian37]

I like the suggestion of using ability classes and ignoring gender altogether.

The problem is you take out half the countries ability to play organized sports.  How many college basketball leagues do you need to have running before you get one that a woman can make the team?  Obviously no professional sports careers or athletic scholarships will be available to any women.  

And if this goes into youth sports, there are almost no girls playing high-school sports.

Practically speaking, trans athletes need their own leagues.  The problem is there just aren't enough of them yet for that to be possible.  But this is the solution that would allow trans men to compete, and would keep trans women from having an unfair advantage.

No. 

Inequity in size exists even between men. Wide receiver Art Monk was over 6 feet tall. On the other hand cornerback Darrell Green, a cornerback was only 5' 9" but both competed in the NFL despite the size difference. I am male too, but I never would have made an NFL team, nor could I have played on a WNBA female basketball team either. 

Tennis has mixed doubles so the idea of never mixing is absurd. 

I even see a day when the NFL has a female place kicker. None of what I just said is saying be it a sports team, or job of any kind for that matter should be blindly given. I am saying I am not fond of absolutes. 

Instead of segregating how about allowing the individual to prove themselves? If they can't that's fine, but if they can, why get stupid if your goal as a coach or team is to win?

[GrandizerII]

I am fine with gender-based separation in sports (and it's important for women that this continues), but I am also fine with the current regulations set in place for M-to-F transwomen so that they may participate in women's sports in a manner that is fair for other women. Yeah, ok, so Tiffany is one of those cases who turns out to be like a Michael Jordan or Serena Williams type, but I don't see any evidence that she's not just an exception to the rule rather than a clear exemplifier of the transsexual women dominance in women's sports. Fallon has only been in a few fights AFAIK, and already lost once, so it doesn't look to me like she's clearly dominating the women's MMA. Who else is there that's dominating women's sports due to the unfair advanatge of once being a man?

What I find interesting personally is if experience in men's sports plays a good role in boosting one's strength/skills in sports (due to regular practice competing against more powerful players), that would probably have some positive implications for women players/athletes, especially cisgendered women. Maybe ... just saying.

[Divinity]

People love pointing at Fallon Fox, and saying "She's won a lot of games!" (except they'll call her a 'he' because they refuse to accept her transition. When people do that, they show it's only about their bigotry, and not their concern for fairness)

Let's look at the people she's beaten.

-Her first fight was against Elisha Helsper, who's pro record is 0-4.
-Her second fight was against Ericka Newsome, who's pro record is 0-2.
-Her third fight was against Alanna Jones who's pro record is 2-8.
-Then she fought Ashlee Evans-Smith and lost. Her pro record is 5-3.
-She did beat Heather Bassett who's pro record is 4-4.
-And her last fight was against Tamikka Brents who's pro record is 2-3.

It's a bit less impressive once you know who's she's beaten. (including two winless fighters, and a fighter with 2 wins and 8 losses)

The IOC -- who knows more about this than all the keyboard experts -- declared that transgender athletes do not have an unfair advantage. (Remember when people wondered if Jackie Robinson had an unfair advantage?) They are an extremely strict organization who banned excessive coffee drinking. Let's not forget that. So while it may not convince you that they are correct in their decision, it's certainly worth pointing out to all the keyboard experts out there.

Also it's not as if these people come in, change genders, and join the sport immediately. They have to undergo years of hormone therapy before they're allowed to join.

And people love to bring up Tennis. So let's do just that. Men have an advantage against women in tennis. Right? I mean Serena and Venus Williams can't beat the 200th ranked whatever... etc.. etc.. yadda yadda yadda. Well let's look at Renee Richards, a transgender tennis player. Male to Female Transition. As a male she was ranked 4th in the region. So it's not as if she didn't play tennis before transitioning. After transitioning, her highest rank at the end of a year was.. 22nd.

[GrandizerII]

Yep. Having been in cross country and track all through high school and college, the best female in our varsity team was still always *significantly* slower than the slowest male in our varsity team. Its not even close. Now, let that sink in - our fastest female was always much slower than our slowest male. Males have a fundamental physical advantage over females when it comes to these types of things. Not just because of current hormone and chemical makeup, but because of bone density, muscle mass, height, size of body frame, size of heart and lungs, and possibly many other things that have not yet been discovered or identified, but that make up the biophysical differences between male/female.

My husband is not a big dude at all. But when we wrestle around for fun, I can feel just how much stronger he is than me. He can pin down both my arms with one hand, and there is absolutely nothing I can do. It literally feels like he is made out of different "stuff" than myself, and I am completely helpless. Fair or not, thats just the work of evolution - males ARE built to be bigger and stronger and faster than females, period. This fact has made women oppressed throughout history, because outwardly, we are the weaker sex and that made us more vulnerable throughout the stone age and still does so now a days in some ways.[/hide]

Ever hear of Roberto Duran? During his reign as the Lightweight Champion in Boxing he was known for having the hardest punch pound for pound in Boxing. He also earned a reputation for having hands of stone because he hit so hard. Let his hair grow long, put some lipstick on him and let him fight as a transgender female. Put him in with former female mma champion Ronda Rousey, both in their primes. Which of the two champions does anyone think would win. Both champions. Both in the same weight class, (Rousey currently at 135). Duran being biologically male and physically stronger would destroy Ronda Rousey with little effort.

That depends. Are we lowering his (or rather, her) testosterone levels to an acceptable level in this scenario? That makes a difference. Not saying that Rousey would win for sure, but let's keep this hypothetical in tune with what's happening in reality.

[Aegon]

Okay, look: I want trans athletes to compete with the sex they identify with, but as long as research shows that their bone density and strength and whathaveyou is still on average greater than a biological woman's, then I oppose it.

But give me a break with this shit. Did you read that article?

So we're just going to end up with volleyball, and no natural women playing. We're just going to end up with basketball, sprinting, whatever, and no natural women competing

Beyond just stealing opportunities from women, these men who are claiming to be women will be erasing real women from the record books. Eventually, at some point in the future, women are going to bemoan the fact that very few (if any) women are enshrined in the record books of sports. The people to blame for the suppression of female athletes are those who refer to themselves as feminists.

Hahaha nothing like alarmist hyperbole to give you a few laughs

[Divinity]

Okay, look: I want trans athletes to compete with the sex they identify with, but as long as research shows that their bone density and strength and whathaveyou is still on average greater than a biological woman's,  then I oppose it.

Black Women have greater bone density than white women.  So obviously we should segregate them, right?

[Amarok]

Okay, look: I want trans athletes to compete with the sex they identify with, but as long as research shows that their bone density and strength and whathaveyou is still on average greater than a biological woman's,  then I oppose it.

Black Women have greater bone density than white women.  So obviously we should segregate them, right?

Last i check the research is still ongoing and hardly conclusive .