Man Named 'Tiffany' Is Dominating Women's Pro Volleyball in Brazil

[GrandizerII]

As long as their testosterone levels are below the normal male range, then what's the problem?

First, that's not what I asked. If a man declares that he's a woman, I presume that by your standards, she is at that moment. Should she be allowed to compete with women at that point? If not, why not?

I am not the authority on this matter, so you're asking the wrong guy. I follow what the IOC proposes on this, since they would know more about potential controversies than you and I would, and because their regulations/guidelines are based on current medical/scientific advice.

Second, why would you define female as not male? Why not say that a trans woman must be within the female range, rather than outside the male range?

For the sake of consistency. If transwomen were forced to compete against men instead if their testosterone levels don't fall within your preferred female range, then many cisgendered/intersex women with relatively high testosterone levels would have to be moved as well. And I don't think that's what they themselves want anyway.

[TaraJo]

Wow. Come in here every few months and this is what greets me. I feel like I should say something.

Truth is, most of the athletic advantage that men have over women come from two places: height and muscle.

Men tend to have more muscles than women. However, that muscle comes from testosterone. Take testosterone out of that body and the muscle will go with it; it won't be an instant thing, the endocrine system is much more gradual like that. But the effect will be there. And I've known a few trans women who, after having surgery which removes her testies, actually have testosterone levels so low that doctors prescribe them with a testosterone cream just to even out their levels. So, yes, it's absolutely possible for trans women to have testosterone levels as low as, if not lower, than other women. Even pre-op, trans women tend to have testosterone levels much lower than men.... although, admittedly, it IS higher than for most other women (excluding women with PCOS, of course).

The second advantage is much stickier. Height is something that doesn't go away with hormones and it's actually the reason I've met more than a few trans women who are six feet tall (and often very self conscious about it). Height mostly comes from the effect testosterone has on long bone growth during puberty. If a trans woman starts testosterone blockers before she's gone too far into male puberty, her height should be comperable to other women. However, most of us don't have that advantage.

I suppose this brings up the problem at the heart of this: if trans women are specifically excluded from competing in athletics with other women and, yet don't have the muscle mass to compete with the men, where can trans women compete?

[John V]

I am not the authority on this matter, so you're asking the wrong guy.

None of us are the authority on this matter, yet we're all discussing it. You're dodging the question, likely because you don't like the implications of your preferred answer.

I follow what the IOC proposes on this, since they would know more about potential controversies than you and I would, and because their regulations/guidelines are based on current medical/scientific advice.

The IOC is as capable as bias as anyone else. Current scientific data has male T range down to 10 - or 6.7, depending on the study - amd 99% of women below 3.08 IIRC. A limit of 3.08 could be set "based on current medical/scientific advice."

For the sake of consistency. If transwomen were forced to compete against men instead if their testosterone levels don't fall within your preferred female range, then many cisgendered/intersex women with relatively high testosterone levels would have to be moved as well.

Why? Cis women above the limit are there naturally, and it would be unethical to ask them to take dangerous drugs to lower their level. However, trans women are already voluntarily taking the drugs. Asking them to lower their level further therefore doesn't pose the same ethical problem.

[GrandizerII]

I am not the authority on this matter, so you're asking the wrong guy.

None of us are the authority on this matter, yet we're all discussing it. You're dodging the question, likely because you don't like the implications of your preferred answer.

You're looking for that "gotcha" moment, but I already answered the question anyway. Read again, and you'll see the answer right there, right after I reminded you that I am not the authority on the matter.

I follow what the IOC proposes on this, since they would know more about potential controversies than you and I would, and because their regulations/guidelines are based on current medical/scientific advice.

The IOC is as capable as bias as anyone else. Current scientific data has male T range down to 10 - or 6.7, depending on the study - amd 99% of women below 3.08 IIRC. A limit of 3.08 could be set "based on current medical/scientific advice."

Except you aren't the arbiter of medical/scientific advice, so let's not pretend you are.

For the sake of consistency. If transwomen were forced to compete against men instead if their testosterone levels don't fall within your preferred female range, then many cisgendered/intersex women with relatively high testosterone levels would have to be moved as well.

Why? Cis women above the limit are there naturally, and it would be unethical to ask them to take dangerous drugs to lower their level. However, trans women are already voluntarily taking the drugs. Asking them to lower their level further therefore doesn't pose the same ethical problem.

So let's get this straight. You have no problem with ciswomen being above your preferred set limit continuing to compete against other women, but you have a problem with transwomen being above that limit and not competing with men instead. Hmm, I wonder why ...

[TaraJo]

So let's get this straight. You have no problem with ciswomen being above your preferred set limit continuing to compete against other women, but you have a problem with transwomen being above that limit and not competing with men instead. Hmm, I wonder why ...

Y'know, there's a big difference between someone taking a drug just to compete in sports and someone taking a drug and happening to compete in sports.

[GrandizerII]

So let's get this straight. You have no problem with ciswomen being above your preferred set limit continuing to compete against other women, but you have a problem with transwomen being above that limit and not competing with men instead. Hmm, I wonder why ...

Y'know, there's a big difference between someone taking a drug just to compete in sports and someone taking a drug and happening to compete in sports.

Not sure what point exactly you're trying to make here.

Yes, there's a difference, but so what? What does this have to do with what's happening in the real world of sports? And why would it matter anyway? If fairly well-considered criteria ((given current medical/scientific knowledge and current moral zeitgeist) are met, then what else matters?