(March 6, 2018 at 6:46 pm)SteveII Wrote:(March 6, 2018 at 5:49 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Have you ever engaged Drich or GC? They seem to possess the certainty that you claim is not possible. The proposed question merely addresses whether we're addressing someone like you or someone like them.
There are people who are absurdly certain in both camps, so the question could be turned around; but let's face it, you're just less likely to be talking to a gnostic atheist than an agnostic one.
I think a Christian can have certainty based on personal experience. I think it is very plausible that certain experiences can result in a properly basic belief about the existence of God. However, that is internal to a person. I don't think that you can prove with certainty that God exists to another person.
(March 6, 2018 at 5:54 pm)Jenny A Wrote: You are correct in saying that I want to have a true belief. That is the crux of it. Regardless of whether it is possible to know for certain, I still want my belief to be correct. Not everyone does. Which is why it is so hard to get Christians to say, "If god does not exist, I don't want to believe in him." It is my way of determing if you all really want to know. If you don't, then you can't discuss the evidence honestly.
Some people don't want to know if they have cancer AIDS. Some people don't want to know if a loved one suffered in death, or if their spouse cheated on them.
This isn't the only question that people sometimes don't want the answer to. Just recently we offered a 23 and Me kit to Mr. A's dad. He declined the offer because his nephew had taken the test and came back only 1/4 English. Mr. A Senior's parents were both English so he expected his nephew to be around 1/2 English. This leads Mr. A Senior to suspect, rightly or wrongly, that his mother had an affair. He would rather not have proof one way or the other. So he will not take the test and has asked Mr. A not to tell him his results. He would prefer, as his says, not to know if his mother had had an affair. It would disturb his memory of her. I'm not going to discuss it with him.
Like theists who will not say that they want to believe there is no god, if there isn't one, they prefer believing one thing, without examining the other possibility. And that's fine, as long as the don't want to discuss the possibilities with me.
But you are forgetting a major point. The Christian you are talking to already believes there to be a certain amount of evidence for their belief. You are not asking them to consider a new body of evidence they have yet to form an opinion on and seek a truth value. They have already committed to Christianity for some list of reasons. So when you want them to consider that God may not exist, you are asking them to reject things they already hold to be true. In other words, the question you are asking them is identical to "if what I already have reasons to believe is true turns out to be wrong, I don't want to believe it." That is not as straightforward as you make it out to be.
I also think the subject does not lend itself to your little test. It would be fine for say politics or scientific theories where the stakes are lower. Also, you are not just talking about a position on a single question: does God exists? You have taken the person's entire worldview and ask them to reject it on the basis of a debate with you. That is not going to happen. So if they agree to your terms, I would suspect they don't understand your point or are not serious.
The question in the OP really boils down to something that many of you christers ask us to do on a regular basis yet get offended if we ask it of you. Assume, for the length of the discussion, that you're wrong. I can't count the number of times that arrogant bastards have tried this gambit with me only to meet with utter refusal, "But, I know he does exist!!!" when the same request is made of them. If you can't respect the person you're trying to converse with at least enough to meet them half way, then you have no reason or right to carry the conversation past your refusal to do so.
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
