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Christian Privilege
#21
RE: Christian Privilege
(March 18, 2018 at 9:57 am)Khemikal Wrote:
(March 18, 2018 at 9:54 am)paulpablo Wrote: I didn't say it was reasoned into existence I said it's circular logic to say that people are disadvantaged because of a lack of privilege.
It's a tautology.  If one group maintains a privilege then they have the advantage of that privilege.  That doesn't mean that's -why- the outgroup is disadvantaged in any larger sense, ofc not, no....but they always will be, so long as one group maintains privilege.  



I was replying to the comment "people are systemically disadvantaged across various domains due to lack of privilege"

Taking into account one relevant and solid definition of privilege being an advantage, it's fair to say a lack of privilege is by definition being disadvantaged.  Saying people are disadvantaged due to being disadvantaged is circular logic.  

I'm replying directly to what Grandizer said so I know I'm talking about what he's talking about, I don't know if you're talking about what we're talking about.

At the moment in this thread there's really only three participants, if you and grandizer are talking about privilege with me then we're all talking about privilege.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





Reply
#22
RE: Christian Privilege
So, that link and quote earlier, that Grand put up about awareness of privilege.  Can you see why someone might think that it accurately describes your thoughts on the matter? I know you disagree that it does, just looking for some common ground. You don;t think it's possible that were talking about different things..you're talking about the thing we're talking about...but if that's so then you're talking about it in a manner very clearly described in that quote.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#23
RE: Christian Privilege
(March 18, 2018 at 9:24 am)paulpablo Wrote: It seems like a conclusion based on circular logic to say people are systematically disadvantaged because of a lack of privilege.  Being disadvantaged is a lack of privilege.  Saying people are systematically disadvantaged because of a lack of privilege is kind of like making the point that people are short because of a lack of vertical height.

Call it emphasis in different words. You can omit "due to lack of privilege", and the actual argument being made would still stand. So I don't understand why you had to resort to this red herring.

Quote:Saying almost everyone is privileged in some way is true, and is the exact opposite of denying privilege exists. It's the opposite of being dismissive, it's acknowledging the vast variables that privilege consists of.

Except it isn't one privilege, but various types of privilege, each type usually based on one broad variable. By grouping the vast variables into one privilege, you are conflating the collective term "privilege" with the individual types of privilege and thereby dismissing the disadvantages suffered by certain groups of people lacking certain types of privileges. So the black man, for example, might have privilege due to his gender, but overall still relatively disadvantaged in societal life compared to the white man. The white woman might have privilege due to skin color/"race", but still lacks male privilege and therefore is relatively disadvantaged in societal life compared to the white man. The white man is granted advantages the black man and the white woman do not get to automatically share, even if they might still be privileged in their own ways.

Quote:Whatever fuss is made I think should be in proportion to someone's experience is in relation to a particular unjust prejudice.  No one really makes a fuss over privilege in and of itself unless the cause of it is seen to be unjustified prejudice.

I am talking about privilege (and lack of it) as applied to a group, not to one individual.

Quote:It wouldn't really make much sense for me to make a fuss over Muslim privilege that happens in Muslim countries or Christian privilege that happens over in Texas.

Christian privilege isn't just in Texas. It's across the USA, and is a thing in many other countries as well, including the UK (and whether we're talking "first-world" countries or "third-world"). It is pervasive, and hence, should be acknowledged rather than dismissed.

And "Muslim privilege" is not a legitimate sociology term AFAIK. But feel free to use that as a red herring either way, lol.

Quote:My background is working class northern England.  Whatever religious prejudice I've encountered has been minor and very variable from situation to situation.  If they were major than those individual instances of religious prejudice is what I would make a fuss over, but not some vague overall notion of Christian privilege that has had very little if any detrimental affect on my life as an atheist.
I suppose that's very specific to my own situation, I don't have much power in terms of persuading people in other parts of the world how to act, making a fuss over the unjust privilege I see around me is pretty much the extent I can affect unjust privilege in the world.

Keep in mind that just because you profess atheism doesn't necessarily mean you no longer have Christian privilege, if you come from a Christian background that is.

And let me link you to clear examples of Christian privilege:

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2012...-privileg/
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#24
RE: Christian Privilege
(March 18, 2018 at 10:44 am)Grandizer Wrote:
(March 18, 2018 at 9:24 am)paulpablo Wrote: It seems like a conclusion based on circular logic to say people are systematically disadvantaged because of a lack of privilege.  Being disadvantaged is a lack of privilege.  Saying people are systematically disadvantaged because of a lack of privilege is kind of like making the point that people are short because of a lack of vertical height.

Call it emphasis in different words. You can omit "due to lack of privilege", and the actual argument being made would still stand. So I don't understand why you had to resort to this red herring.

It's not a red herring it's pointing out circular logic.  That's what it is if you say people are systematically disadvantaged due to being disadvantaged, saying something is there and the reason that it's there is because it's there.  It's using circular logic rather than talking about actual reasons.  It wasn't really a big deal just something minor I noticed.  

I never said there is one type of privilege, I said there's lots and lots of different types.

Also it makes no difference as to what I said if the privilege being talked about is applied to groups or individuals.  I said that in my specific situation it makes sense that if I do focus on correcting unjust prejudice that results in certain types of privilege, it would only really be affective if I focus on what's around me.

I'd never dismiss Christian privilege, it's obviously as real as any other privilege resulting from religious prejudice.  Including Muslim privilege that you're dismissing because it isn't "a legitimate sociology term".
Religious discrimination is rife in many Islamic countries. I can't see how different demographics and a different geographical location makes something illegitimate.

I read through the examples of Christian privilege and so far can see none that I get from being an atheist that used to be a Christian.  

The examples of Christian privilege are also simply false because of oversimplification in many of those cases.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





Reply
#25
RE: Christian Privilege
Popcorn
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#26
RE: Christian Privilege
(March 18, 2018 at 11:24 am)paulpablo Wrote: It's not a red herring it's pointing out circular logic.  That's what it is if you say people are systematically disadvantaged due to being disadvantaged, saying something is there and the reason that it's there is because it's there.  It's using circular logic rather than talking about actual reasons.  It wasn't really a big deal just something minor I noticed.

You're focusing on the wrong argument here. In fact, you're the one who split that sentence into a conclusion and premise when the whole thing is meant as a premise for the actual argument that I made there. Again remove the "due to ... " phrase, it doesn't matter. The actual argument still stands.

Quote:I never said there is one type of privilege, I said there's lots and lots of different types.

Ok, but do you see what I'm getting at here? One can have male or white privilege and still not have the privilege a white man has. To say that most people are privileged is misleading.

Quote:I'd never dismiss Christian privilege, it's obviously as real as any other privilege resulting from religious prejudice.

Yet, you do just that down below.

Quote:Including Muslim privilege that you're dismissing because it isn't "a legitimate sociology term".
Religious discrimination is rife in many Islamic countries.

Including discrimination against certain sects of Islam. Nevertheless, I'm happy to grant that Muslim privilege exists somewhere in this world, but it still doesn't change the fact Christian privilege is pervasive and can clearly be observed almost everywhere in the Western world and other parts of the world.

Quote:I read through the examples of Christian privilege and so far can see none that I get from being an atheist that used to be a Christian.  

The examples of Christian privilege are also simply false because of oversimplification in many of those cases.

This is why I don't believe for a second that you actually acknowledge the existence of Christian privilege or privilege in general. Your denial here is clear.
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#27
RE: Christian Privilege
[Image: qPacp6U.jpg]

Yeah..... this is why xhristards annoy the fuck out me.  Sanctimonious cunts.
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#28
RE: Christian Privilege
(March 18, 2018 at 9:38 pm)Grandizer Wrote:
(March 18, 2018 at 11:24 am)paulpablo Wrote: It's not a red herring it's pointing out circular logic.  That's what it is if you say people are systematically disadvantaged due to being disadvantaged, saying something is there and the reason that it's there is because it's there.  It's using circular logic rather than talking about actual reasons.  It wasn't really a big deal just something minor I noticed.

You're focusing on the wrong argument here. In fact, you're the one who split that sentence into a conclusion and premise when the whole thing is meant as a premise for the actual argument that I made there. Again remove the "due to ... " phrase, it doesn't matter. The actual argument still stands.

Quote:I never said there is one type of privilege, I said there's lots and lots of different types.

Ok, but do you see what I'm getting at here? One can have male or white privilege and still not have the privilege a white man has. To say that most people are privileged is misleading.

Quote:I'd never dismiss Christian privilege, it's obviously as real as any other privilege resulting from religious prejudice.

Yet, you do just that down below.

Quote:Including Muslim privilege that you're dismissing because it isn't "a legitimate sociology term".
Religious discrimination is rife in many Islamic countries.

Including discrimination against certain sects of Islam. Nevertheless, I'm happy to grant that Muslim privilege exists somewhere in this world, but it still doesn't change the fact Christian privilege is pervasive and can clearly be observed almost everywhere in the Western world and other parts of the world.

Quote:I read through the examples of Christian privilege and so far can see none that I get from being an atheist that used to be a Christian.  

The examples of Christian privilege are also simply false because of oversimplification in many of those cases.

This is why I don't believe for a second that you actually acknowledge the existence of Christian privilege or privilege in general. Your denial here is clear.

I don't know about focusing on the wrong argument. I just briefly mentioned that you saying something exists because it exists is circular reasoning, it's nothing major, I already said that.


No I don't believe that you can have white male privilege and not have the privilege a white man has.  The sentence itself makes no sense. A white male has no set level of privilege, we're all different, there's a lot of us.

I still don't dismiss that christian privilege exists, it just doesn't exist the way it's described in a few of those examples given.

I didn't get all the way through the list but I didn't see any that I benefit from as an atheist that used to be Christian, and I can already see some major flaws in what's already listed.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





Reply
#29
RE: Christian Privilege
(March 19, 2018 at 12:48 am)paulpablo Wrote: I don't know about focusing on the wrong argument. I just briefly mentioned that you saying something exists because it exists is circular reasoning, it's nothing major, I already said that.

What's that saying about missing the forest for the trees? Yeah, you're nitpicking, even after I emphasized that this wasn't the actual argument I was making there. Just move on.

Quote:No I don't believe that you can have white male privilege and not have the privilege a white man has.

You missed the key word "or". Consider rereading my post to see where you went wrong in your reading comprehension.

Quote:A white male has no set level of privilege, we're all different, there's a lot of us.

Then you don't accept the reality of white male privilege. And so I think, despite what you're arguing, you deny the reality of privilege as it is intended to mean in sociology.

Quote:I still don't dismiss that christian privilege exists, it just doesn't exist the way it's described in a few of those examples given.

If you say so.

Quote:I didn't get all the way through the list but I didn't see any that I benefit from as an atheist that used to be Christian, and I can already see some major flaws in what's already listed.

Ok, consider this:

Your name is Paul or George or John (something like that). And you're applying for a white collar job. You got the skills and qualifications required for the job.

Someone else whose name is Muhammad (or Ali or Hassan, etc.) also applies for the same job that you do, with the same skillset and qualifications.

Given all else equal, who's more likely to get that job between you two? Is it going to be a random choice? Or will the subconscious do the judging (as always) going by the name of the applicant?
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#30
RE: Christian Privilege
Would you rather be perceived as a white christian male when facing assault charges or a black muslim?  
(notice it doesn't matter if you're actually an atheist that passes for white, for example)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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