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I will become Atheist if.....
#11
RE: I will become Atheist if.....
(March 27, 2018 at 11:21 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I am getting awfully bored...so I am going to give you guys the best opportunity to bring me to the dark side which will allow me to do all these things I really want to do but restrict myself from doing!


1. You can rationally justify belief in a value of a human being in the framework of Atheism (and I am using this definition as in non-belief in supernatural gods).
2. You can rationally justify you being the same person as a child with that framework, that despite all the changes, you are the same person.
3. You can rationally justify your actions being linked to who you are and there is a such thing as "better" or "worse" when it comes to humans.
4.  You can rationally justify the belief in justice with your framework.
5. You can rationally justify the nature of love that has language that judges all things and gives value to all things from your framework.

I am not saying you have to do all 5. You can do 1. Trust me, my faith will fall and shred, if you can and I'm not joking.  It will shred.

So ball is in your court.

Your balls are in your mouth.
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#12
RE: I will become Atheist if.....
(March 27, 2018 at 11:35 am)Khemikal Wrote:
(March 27, 2018 at 11:21 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I am getting awfully bored...so I am going to give you guys the best opportunity to bring me to the dark side which will allow me to do all these things I really want to do but restrict myself from doing!


1. You can rationally justify belief in a value of a human being in the framework of Atheism (and I am using this definition as in non-belief in supernatural gods).
2. You can rationally justify you being the same person as a child with that framework, that despite all the changes, you are the same person.
3. You can rationally justify your actions being linked to who you are and there is a such thing as "better" or "worse" when it comes to humans.
4.  You can rationally justify the belief in justice with your framework.
5. You can rationally justify the nature of love that has language that judges all things and gives value to all things from your framework.

I am not saying you have to do all 5. You can do 1. Trust me, my faith will fall and shred, if you can and I'm not joking.  It will shred.

So ball is in your court.
b-mine

We both know that's not true, so why say it?  It doesn;t seem like anyone else is convinced that this is anything other than a futile endeavor, either.  Why do you think that is?

It is true though. What brought me back to faith in God was belief all these things were impossible without God after I formed an argument to disprove God (which seemed convincing).

At a point, it almost seemed, that both all out nihilism and totally valueless world was the true nature, and that no God existed. But it was that moment I realized I was giving up vision of the truth I had all a long, something higher we are connected to.

It brought be to Deism, but brought to me to a greater faith in the unseen connection and vision then ever.  So I decided to give religion another go. And the wonders of the book began to unravel because my mind understood a lot of the emphasized signs and proofs regarding the Oneness of God and his existence.

And than it pointed to more arguments. And it put it a better framework the moral argument, etc, it put in better words.

You know it's 100% true because you witnessed that is how I came back to faith.

(March 27, 2018 at 11:37 am)mlmooney89 Wrote:
(March 27, 2018 at 11:32 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I am sorry they infuriate you. I know very well Atheists can do compassionate actions, not so sure if they deny the nature of goodness if their actions can be considered good, but they can do many acts of compassion, gratitude, respect, and of love for sure.  I am searching the answer if an action can be considered good without belief in the true nature of goodness.

But I just want to see you justify framework of our humanity that no human does without the framework of Atheism. If you can justify any of the above in the framework of Atheism, I will leave Theism, because my Theism is built on the impossibility justify any of these things from the framework of Atheism.

If our explaining being an atheist sways you from your core beliefs you must not believe very much. Also the act of being good and the act of being bad are both human nature and part of our instincts just like wanting water or food. It's the way our brain works.

You don't know how much I wanted to believe we can be justified in any of this while I was an Atheist for that week I was. If you can justify it do it. Saying it's simply how we are, won't cut it.

And yes my faith is falsifiable to this degree. That if you can prove any of these things to be justified, than my faith will fall apart.
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

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#13
RE: I will become Atheist if.....
(March 27, 2018 at 11:40 am)MysticKnight Wrote: It is true though.
-and yet every question 1-5 just had the rug pulled entirely out from under them with a single sentence..and in response you reassert your belief, and your request.

Temet Nosce, buddy.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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#14
RE: I will become Atheist if.....
(March 27, 2018 at 11:21 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I am getting awfully bored...so I am going to give you guys the best opportunity to bring me to the dark side which will allow me to do all these things I really want to do but restrict myself from doing!


1. You can rationally justify belief in a value of a human being in the framework of Atheism (and I am using this definition as in non-belief in supernatural gods).
2. You can rationally justify you being the same person as a child with that framework, that despite all the changes, you are the same person.
3. You can rationally justify your actions being linked to who you are and there is a such thing as "better" or "worse" when it comes to humans.
4.  You can rationally justify the belief in justice with your framework.
5. You can rationally justify the nature of love that has language that judges all things and gives value to all things from your framework.

I am not saying you have to do all 5. You can do 1. Trust me, my faith will fall and shred, if you can and I'm not joking.  It will shred.

So ball is in your court.

What if I couldn't make a very good case for 2 and 5, but I knocked the others out of the park... would you still be interested?
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#15
RE: I will become Atheist if.....
When you guys are willing to provide proofs for your position, I will hear it. I'm asking just for a framework that can justify any of these fundamental beliefs humans all have. It's too much to ask I guess.

(March 27, 2018 at 11:48 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(March 27, 2018 at 11:21 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I am getting awfully bored...so I am going to give you guys the best opportunity to bring me to the dark side which will allow me to do all these things I really want to do but restrict myself from doing!


1. You can rationally justify belief in a value of a human being in the framework of Atheism (and I am using this definition as in non-belief in supernatural gods).
2. You can rationally justify you being the same person as a child with that framework, that despite all the changes, you are the same person.
3. You can rationally justify your actions being linked to who you are and there is a such thing as "better" or "worse" when it comes to humans.
4.  You can rationally justify the belief in justice with your framework.
5. You can rationally justify the nature of love that has language that judges all things and gives value to all things from your framework.

I am not saying you have to do all 5. You can do 1. Trust me, my faith will fall and shred, if you can and I'm not joking.  It will shred.

So ball is in your court.

What if I couldn't make a very good case for 2 and 5, but I knocked the others out of the park... would you still be interested?

Yes, just 1 will do.
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

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#16
RE: I will become Atheist if.....
I don't understand how people don't understand that human beings hold value by default. Just... being alive and experiencing stimuli is enough. You don't need to qualify it or prove it. It's strange to me that people feel that they have to.
Memento Mori
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#17
RE: I will become Atheist if.....
We were all wandering through the desert of our turgid existence before magic books came along to give us values.  Wink
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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#18
RE: I will become Atheist if.....
(March 27, 2018 at 11:50 am)Aegon Wrote: I don't understand how people don't understand that human beings hold value by default. Just... being alive and experiencing stimuli is enough. You don't need to qualify it or prove it. It's strange to me that people feel that they have to.

The thing is we are all seeing the same thing when we believe in value, love, goodness, praise. The question is, who is best describing it, and who is being honest about it and who is denying it's essential nature.

If a soul exists, we are a soul, and it' sufficient to know we are a soul by our experience. True. Same with value, same with praise... But at a certain point, we have to question, which framework works with what we are seeing.

Does the Atheist framework work with what we are experiencing in the human experience.

If you can show it works.  You will shatter my faith.
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

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#19
RE: I will become Atheist if.....
Quote:But I just want to see you justify framework of our humanity that no human does without the framework of Atheism.

There is no "framework" of atheism, MK.  There is simply the understanding that all of the gods invented throughout human history by scared, primitive, little men, have been phony.

I'm sorry you can't deal with that but your god is phony, too.
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#20
RE: I will become Atheist if.....
Subconscious cries for help are tragic.  If you want to be free of djinn,..at some point..you're going to have to accept that you're the only person who can do that for you.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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