I will become Atheist if.....

[Mystic]

I like the more sincerity of the discussions we are having in this thread.  It was frustrating before when people would act silly but I like the tone now.

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I read the OP as, "I'm tired of carrying around this religious dogma, but I don't feel comfortable letting go of it until I have some other belief system to replace it with".

I can understand that, it could seem weird for someone raised in a heavily religious setting to develop their own ideas from the ground up. It's like leaving an on-rails shooter and entering an open-world RPG. My advice would be to embrace this as an opportunity rather than worrying about the uncertainty. There's no need to come to all your conclusions at once.

But what is the purpose of the game? Who made it? What do they want us to do? How do we know if we're winning? Gays should be excluded from hunting parties?

It doesn't matter, just play the game while you can, and figure out how you want to play it. You'll probably be surprised to find you don't actually want to kill all the other players, and not because the programmer is constantly supervising you.

It's quite simple to me, God wants us to appreciate everything deserving of it and reach a state where we created the praise in us that is to be appreciated at whatever rank.  And big part of it helping one another in righteousness and not pushing to evil, and he wishes humans to determine their fate with of course his help and guidance.

Of course God being the greatest being worthy of appreciation and praise,  we would be unbalanced if we don't appreciate and recognize him.

And the greatest aspect of love is fear, because it is the aspect of love that seeks to protect what it has, and that is the greatest aspect of gratitude, to protect and appreciate the greatest treasure you are given is through fear. That is what fear is, it's a protector. Don't ever mix that with cowardice.

[Anomalocaris]

I am getting awfully bored...so I am going to give you guys the best opportunity to bring me to the dark side which will allow me to do all these things I really want to do but restrict myself from doing!


1. You can rationally justify belief in a value of a human being in the framework of Atheism (and I am using this definition as in non-belief in supernatural gods).
2. You can rationally justify you being the same person as a child with that framework, that despite all the changes, you are the same person.
3. You can rationally justify your actions being linked to who you are and there is a such thing as "better" or "worse" when it comes to humans.
4.  You can rationally justify the belief in justice with your framework.
5. You can rationally justify the nature of love that has language that judges all things and gives value to all things from your framework.

I am not saying you have to do all 5. You can do 1. Trust me, my faith will fall and shred, if you can and I'm not joking.  It will shred.

So ball is in your court.

We have no responsibility to relieve you of your superstition and delusions. The ball would not have been in our court even if you had one.

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If you think you would lose all concepts of justice, morality, and compassion without your theism, then please for the love of your god stay a theist.

Except hardly can the concept of justice, morality, and compassion inculcated by his religion do the rest of mankind any favors.

In all likelihood, had all Muslims lost their sense of justice, morality, and compassion as propounded by their religion, the Muslim world would be a kinder, more just, more truly compassionate as well as more progressive and more productive world than it is today.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's quite simple to me, God wants

b-mine, and snipped for relevance and brevity.

I'm not interested in what your gods wants.  It has absolutely no bearing on my life....but if you're comfortable in referring to the desires of others, and even to the desires of pixies..how can you then deny that same justification with any other random fucker inserted where you would cram a god?

What could you be saying, other than that you think god likes some shit..and apparently the right shit™..such that if god liked vanilla more than chocolate you'd like vanilla more than chocolate as well?

[Mystic]

^Goodness is to submit to guidance from the source of guidance. Not to determine it by our whims.

[The Grand Nudger]

If you say so.  I was taught better than to simply follow orders.

[Mystic]

If you say so.  I was taught better than to simply follow orders.

It's chaotic and circular reasoning if you try to determine goodness by desires and conjecture. It doesn't lead anywhere but furthering away from the door of light you are meant to enter.
We all can walk our own paths sure,  but where would the lead to?  If you want to get somewhere meaningful, you need direction and a path way.
Blindly following orders is condemned.   Relying on vision by centering your attention to those who call by insight and vision, is what will make you perceive the path and walk it.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm not interested in walking through your door of light.  When has that ever been unclear?  Neither the stick nor the carrot will make me hop to and follow orders for orders sake.

I can only reiterate that I was taught better.  

If you want to tell me the reasoning behind why I should do x apart from the notion that your god said so, or that he'll give me cookies if I do, or whip me if I don;t..I;m all ears.  OFC, at that point I'll either do or not do whatever that is based upon the reasons offered..not whether they come from a particular prince that you swear fealty to or what I could get from my compliance (or lose from my passing on the offer).

Meanwhile, you're descending into gibberish again...and I know you can speak plain english.

[Brian37]

^Goodness is to submit to guidance from the source of guidance. Not to determine it by our whims.

The word "submit" is a very vile word to me. There is no equality in that word, no consent in that word. The word literally means to bow to the will of another. NO, I am nobody's slave. If somebody else thinks they have a good idea or are on the right track, they can make an argument, but no, nobody dictates to me. NOBODY.

I respond to facts that can be proven, not mere claims that are asserted.

[Minimalist]

Looks as if he's relapsed.

[Norfolk And Chance]

I am getting awfully bored...so I am going to give you guys the best opportunity to bring me to the dark side which will allow me to do all these things I really want to do but restrict myself from doing!


1. You can rationally justify belief in a value of a human being in the framework of Atheism (and I am using this definition as in non-belief in supernatural gods).
2. You can rationally justify you being the same person as a child with that framework, that despite all the changes, you are the same person.
3. You can rationally justify your actions being linked to who you are and there is a such thing as "better" or "worse" when it comes to humans.
4.  You can rationally justify the belief in justice with your framework.
5. You can rationally justify the nature of love that has language that judges all things and gives value to all things from your framework.

I am not saying you have to do all 5. You can do 1. Trust me, my faith will fall and shred, if you can and I'm not joking.  It will shred.

So ball is in your court.

4 We have a secular justice system, laws, courts, trials - no god is required to mete out justice in this arena.

Fuck, that was easy. Welcome to the dark side.

I'll buy you your first beer.