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RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
April 2, 2018 at 2:05 pm
(April 2, 2018 at 1:57 pm)Khemikal Wrote: @Stretch
If/only/if -- xnor can;t be applied to statements such as the one contained in premise two...you've just established why.
A biconditional is a valid argument, but the natural language employed is not a bi conditional. Hilariously...I've been explaining this to Mystic since he was a deist.......in the absence of a sufficient -and- necessary relationship, we aren't discussing a biconditional.
I agree that it doesn't exist in the natural language, but it can be converted into a biconditional because the basic assumption is that moral guidance exists if and only if a God also exists to give said guidance. In other words, the source of moral guidance can only be God and nothing else.
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RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
April 2, 2018 at 2:06 pm
(This post was last modified: April 2, 2018 at 2:11 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-further, a reading of his own arguments that does follow would simply be that "real" moral guidance doesn't exist, even though moral guidance does - because the implicational relationship between them even if we accept them only flows one way. Oh well.
(April 2, 2018 at 2:05 pm)stretch3172 Wrote: (April 2, 2018 at 1:57 pm)Khemikal Wrote: @Stretch
If/only/if -- xnor can;t be applied to statements such as the one contained in premise two...you've just established why.
A biconditional is a valid argument, but the natural language employed is not a bi conditional. Hilariously...I've been explaining this to Mystic since he was a deist.......in the absence of a sufficient -and- necessary relationship, we aren't discussing a biconditional.
I agree that it doesn't exist in the natural language, but it can be converted into a biconditional because the basic assumption is that moral guidance exists if and only if a God also exists to give said guidance. In other words, the source of moral guidance can only be God and nothing else. "real moral guidance"..mind, lol....
at which point we take an invalid argument, make it valid..and it falls to an unsound premise...while still leaving open the possibility that there simply is no "real moral guidance". I personally think that this has to be the absolute worst way to go about attempting to prove a god...because it fails to do so, and in that failure, potentially destroys the very thing referred to in it's opening gambit.
There are better ways to express the articles of ones faith, in argument, imo.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
April 2, 2018 at 2:23 pm
(This post was last modified: April 2, 2018 at 2:25 pm by Mystic.)
Guidance suggests love needs to act on guidance. If we can all decide for ourselves, and are the source, we don't need morality. It become superfluous. We are just calling our thoughts that we come up with and want to act and is meaningful to us, as morality.
That is why Quran goes on the paradigm, it's ether God's guidance morally or it's desires and conjecture, where we mix valuing what has value with what doesn't, and just mix everything up.
Saying you are the guide of yourself, is just stating you act on according to your will and decide, it means guidance is not necessary.
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RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
April 2, 2018 at 2:25 pm
(This post was last modified: April 2, 2018 at 2:29 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
blah blah blah "I'm an ammoral creature that lacks an ounce of the sense of my compatriots. Save me from myself skydaddy!"
Some of us aren't afflicted with that particular deficiency, Mystic. Maybe you really do need a god to tell you right from wrong..but if that;s the case...the tragedy is that no one is going to swoop down and rescue you. You;re certainly doing yourself no favors on that count by following the magic book of a bunch of truly deplorable people.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
April 2, 2018 at 2:27 pm
(This post was last modified: April 2, 2018 at 2:30 pm by Mystic.)
(April 2, 2018 at 2:25 pm)Khemikal Wrote: blah blah blah "I'm an ammoral creature that lacks an ounce of the sense of my compatriots. Save me from myself skydaddy!"
The rest of us aren't afflicted with that particularly deficiency, Mystic.
Yet without looking for guidance, we are the source, so what does it mean guidance in that context?
Morality as we know is guidance for us to act on. That's how it got passed to us as in what morality means. It's not out own decisions we just decide how to act, but something that we look to get guided by.
If we are sufficient and the source, than what are we exactly and why do we choose evil sometimes?
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RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
April 2, 2018 at 2:30 pm
Because we're fallible? I mean...shot in the dark..right?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
April 2, 2018 at 2:34 pm
(April 2, 2018 at 2:30 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Because we're fallible? I mean...shot in the dark..right?
We can't be the source of guidance, we can realize guidance which is different from being the source.
We recognize morality but are not it's authors.
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RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
April 2, 2018 at 2:35 pm
...........and? I don't think that we're the authors of morality either. I don't see how inventing a god improves our position in this regard.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
April 2, 2018 at 2:35 pm
(April 2, 2018 at 2:06 pm)Khemikal Wrote: -further, a reading of his own arguments that does follow would simply be that "real" moral guidance doesn't exist, even though moral guidance does - because the implicational relationship between them even if we accept them only flows one way. Oh well.
(April 2, 2018 at 2:05 pm)stretch3172 Wrote: I agree that it doesn't exist in the natural language, but it can be converted into a biconditional because the basic assumption is that moral guidance exists if and only if a God also exists to give said guidance. In other words, the source of moral guidance can only be God and nothing else. "real moral guidance"..mind, lol....
at which point we take an invalid argument, make it valid..and it falls to an unsound premise...while still leaving open the possibility that there simply is no "real moral guidance". I personally think that this has to be the absolute worst way to go about attempting to prove a god...because it fails to do so, and in that failure, potentially destroys the very thing referred to in it's opening gambit.
There are better ways to express the articles of ones faith, in argument, imo.
His argument is valid but not sound. It follows the exact same structure as my own valid but unsound argument for the existence of spell-casting wizards.
So, if he reformulates his, I'll reformulate mine. Which should be fun 
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RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
April 2, 2018 at 2:38 pm
(This post was last modified: April 2, 2018 at 2:38 pm by Mystic.)
(April 2, 2018 at 2:35 pm)Khemikal Wrote: ...........and? I don't think that we're the authors of morality either. I don't see how inventing a god improves our position in this regard.
Really, so did you have it from birth and it hasn't changed?
And is genetics and evolution so trustworthy you have to act according to moral instinct?
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