DNA Proves Existence of a Designer

[Angrboda]

That sort of thing is forbidden. 
"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft."
Deuteronomy 18:10
Jebus no likey that shit. 

Deuteronomy is not talking about divine prophecy and interpretation of dreams by divine power.

And how do you know this?

[Bucky Ball]

Prophecy isn't fortune-telling.
The first prophecy was the Protoevangelium in Genesis 3.

Assertion. No references (as per your usual). 
Too bad for you, (since you actually know nothing about Hebrew culture) "prophecy" was not "telling the future" until the turn of the millennium. 

The ancient role of a prophet in Hebrew culture was to interpret the words or will of their god to the people OF THEIR OWN DAY. NOT to predict the future. (That's Hollywood's idea of the role of a prophet). 
So you often hear fundies talking about "prophesy", and how various prophesies were a 'foretelling", or prediction of the future, and indeed they count them up as "proof" that Jebus or whatever HAS to be true, as the "prophecy" came true. 
In fact Leviticus forbade fortune telling and divination, so we know it was an abomination to even think in these terms for many/most centuries in Hebrew culture. However, with the rise of Apocalypticism, around the turn of the millennium, this changed somewhat, and is evidenced in many Christian writings, including the gospels, as they adopted the notions absent in ancient Israel, but coming into popular view with the Essenes. In terms of Hebrew culture, and the "telling of or prediction of" the future, was unknown, and forbidden, and not at ALL a view of the major prophets themselves. However in the the new view, certain "hidden meanings" or "pesherim" began to be looked for, in the practice of Midrash. The name for this is called "pesher", (or seeking a "hidden meaning"), which was not even known to the original speaker/writer, but only "revealed" later
to certain believers. Originally, the (plural) "pesherim" were only fully revealed to the Son of Righteousness, (the leader of the Essenes), and the idea was first found and fully understood after scholars read the Dead Sea scrolls, and was a sub category of "Midrash", (or study of the texts). 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...15650.html
Thus we see that "prophesy" as fortune telling as began to be practiced in Judaism around the First Century, (and picked up by Christians and the gospel writers), really was a very late invention and never a classical part of Hebrew scripture, or understanding, either interpretation, or intention, and certainly was not the function of the ancient office of "prophet", in Hebrew culture, who was to be a "mouthpiece" to the people of their own day, and not Madame Zelda with her crystal ball.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't know why preferences even enter into a discussion of whether or not gen 3 had anything to do with some jesus.  It didn't, still doesn't.  That's one of the more absurd beliefs that some christians hold.    Doesn't have anything to do with me or my life experiences..it's just flat out nonsense.

No, you just can't comprehend. Not everybody gets it.  Just like you can't imagine hunting scary ol' lions.

Oh please, troll..lol.  I comprehend just fine.  Christians have imagined that old magic book is rife with breadcrumbs about their new magic book godman.  

Being christians, they see things that simply aren't there.

[T0 Th3 M4X]

Prophecy isn't fortune-telling.
The first prophecy was the Protoevangelium in Genesis 3.

Assertion. No references (as per your usual). 
Too bad for you, (since you actually know nothing about Hebrew culture) "prophecy" was not "telling the future" until the turn of the millennium. 

The ancient role of a prophet in Hebrew culture was to interpret the words or will of their god to the people OF THEIR OWN DAY. NOT to predict the future. (That's Hollywood's idea of the role of a prophet). 
So you often hear fundies talking about "prophesy", and how various prophesies were a 'foretelling", or prediction of the future, and indeed they count them up as "proof" that Jebus or whatever HAS to be true, as the "prophecy" came true. 
In fact Leviticus forbade fortune telling and divination, so we know it was an abomination to even think in these terms for many/most centuries in Hebrew culture. However, with the rise of Apocalypticism, around the turn of the millennium, this changed somewhat, and is evidenced in many Christian writings, including the gospels, as they adopted the notions absent in ancient Israel, but coming into popular view with the Essenes. In terms of Hebrew culture, and the "telling of or prediction of" the future, was unknown, and forbidden, and not at ALL a view of the major prophets themselves. However in the the new view, certain "hidden meanings" or "pesherim" began to be looked for, in the practice of Midrash. The name for this is called "pesher", (or seeking a "hidden meaning"), which was not even known to the original speaker/writer, but only "revealed" later
to certain believers. Originally, the (plural) "pesherim" were only fully revealed to the Son of Righteousness, (the leader of the Essenes), and the idea was first found and fully understood after scholars read the Dead Sea scrolls, and was a sub category of "Midrash", (or study of the texts). 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...15650.html
Thus we see that "prophesy" as fortune telling as began to be practiced in Judaism around the First Century, (and picked up by Christians and the gospel writers), really was a very late invention and never a classical part of Hebrew scripture, or understanding, either interpretation, or intention, and certainly was not the function of the ancient office of "prophet", in Hebrew culture, who was to be a "mouthpiece" to the people of their own day, and not Madame Zelda with her crystal ball.

I did provide a reference. Genesis 3. Did you want me to be more specific as to where in Genesis 3?  If so, I would be glad to do so.

Sorry, but you don't appear to be very bright.  You quote me giving a reference then try to invalidate me by suggesting I didn't provide a reference.  To that I say...

Derp!

[brewer]

[Bucky Ball]

Assertion. No references (as per your usual). 
Too bad for you, (since you actually know nothing about Hebrew culture) "prophecy" was not "telling the future" until the turn of the millennium. 

The ancient role of a prophet in Hebrew culture was to interpret the words or will of their god to the people OF THEIR OWN DAY. NOT to predict the future. (That's Hollywood's idea of the role of a prophet). 
So you often hear fundies talking about "prophesy", and how various prophesies were a 'foretelling", or prediction of the future, and indeed they count them up as "proof" that Jebus or whatever HAS to be true, as the "prophecy" came true. 
In fact Leviticus forbade fortune telling and divination, so we know it was an abomination to even think in these terms for many/most centuries in Hebrew culture. However, with the rise of Apocalypticism, around the turn of the millennium, this changed somewhat, and is evidenced in many Christian writings, including the gospels, as they adopted the notions absent in ancient Israel, but coming into popular view with the Essenes. In terms of Hebrew culture, and the "telling of or prediction of" the future, was unknown, and forbidden, and not at ALL a view of the major prophets themselves. However in the the new view, certain "hidden meanings" or "pesherim" began to be looked for, in the practice of Midrash. The name for this is called "pesher", (or seeking a "hidden meaning"), which was not even known to the original speaker/writer, but only "revealed" later
to certain believers. Originally, the (plural) "pesherim" were only fully revealed to the Son of Righteousness, (the leader of the Essenes), and the idea was first found and fully understood after scholars read the Dead Sea scrolls, and was a sub category of "Midrash", (or study of the texts). 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...15650.html
Thus we see that "prophesy" as fortune telling as began to be practiced in Judaism around the First Century, (and picked up by Christians and the gospel writers), really was a very late invention and never a classical part of Hebrew scripture, or understanding, either interpretation, or intention, and certainly was not the function of the ancient office of "prophet", in Hebrew culture, who was to be a "mouthpiece" to the people of their own day, and not Madame Zelda with her crystal ball.

I did provide a reference. Genesis 3. Did you want me to be more specific as to where in Genesis 3?  If so, I would be glad to do so.

Sorry, but you don't appear to be very bright.  You quote me giving a reference then try to invalidate me by suggesting I didn't provide a reference.  To that I say...

Derp!

You did not. You CLAIM that Genesis references something scholars KNOW was not the understanding of what "prophesy" and it was is a fail.
Re-referencing Genesis is bogus. You must reference a recognized scholar of Archaic Hebrew for a reference to be valid. You don't seem to be very capable in this debate thing. You also seem to have very very little background in the Bible or Hebrew culture.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/robe...html#proof

"Whence the Proof from Prophecy?
In all this, there is nothing of the apologetical appeal to public, long-standing messianic claims. Matthew was not aiming at the same thing subsequent Christian apologists were. Why the change? Why did apologists, ancient (I would include Luke) and modern, shift over to an incredible appeal to Old Testament proof texts as if the Christian reinterpretation represented the original intentions of the prophets to predict Jesus? I think it is because very shortly, the vast majority of Christians, and Christian scholars, were Greek-speaking Gentiles who were accustomed to reading only the Greek Septuagint and reading it with only a Christian application in mind. They viewed the Old Testament dispensation simply as the time of waiting for the Christ, and the Old Testament characters as pretty much "Christians before Christ" (to borrow Justin Martyr's term for Socrates and other Greek spokesmen for the Logos). They read the Old Testament anachronistically, made it into a Christian book, and began to suppose that Isaiah had nothing in mind other than predicting Jesus Christ. Here and there one catches an early Christian voice protesting that the Old Testament author could not have had Jesus in mind, e.g., Marcion of Pontus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, who held out for a literal, non-messianic reading of most or all of the Old Testament, but these, obviously, are the exceptions that prove the rule.
Even if most did read the Old Testament as a Christian document even on the surface, Christian hermeneutics did not theoretically demand this. Most exegetes held in common with Origen some sort of multi-sense hermeneutic, whereby the surface, literal sense was often not even the most important one. One could still find the messianic sense in one of these esoteric levels of meaning, and many of the supposed "messianic" predictions that Hal Lindsay and others today seem to take as the surface meaning were relegated to secondary, non-literal interpretations by the ancients. Where the crisis really came was at the time of the Protestant Reformation, when to rule out Catholic appeals to non-literal meanings on behalf of the papacy or the sale of indulgences, Martin Luther rejected, on principle, any but the straightforward, surface sense of any text as recoverable by means of the grammatico-historical method. At the same time, it did not occur to him to break with traditional appeals to Old Testament prophecy to prove that Christians were right and Jews were wrong about Jesus. This is what created the intolerable bind in which fundamentalist apologists find themselves in today (though they seem oblivious to the difficulty, one suspects because they share the same merely opportunistic interest that ancient Christians had in the Old Testament as a source of Christian proof texts)."

[T0 Th3 M4X]

I did provide a reference. Genesis 3. Did you want me to be more specific as to where in Genesis 3?  If so, I would be glad to do so.

Sorry, but you don't appear to be very bright.  You quote me giving a reference then try to invalidate me by suggesting I didn't provide a reference.  To that I say...

Derp!

You did not. You CLAIM that Genesis references something scholars KNOW was not the understanding of what "prophesy" and it was is a fail.
Re-referencing Genesis is bogus. You must reference a recognized scholar of Archaic Hebrew for a reference to be valid. You don't seem to be very capable in this debate thing. You also seem to have very very little background in the Bible or Hebrew culture.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/robe...html#proof

"Whence the Proof from Prophecy?
In all this, there is nothing of the apologetical appeal to public, long-standing messianic claims. Matthew was not aiming at the same thing subsequent Christian apologists were. Why the change? Why did apologists, ancient (I would include Luke) and modern, shift over to an incredible appeal to Old Testament proof texts as if the Christian reinterpretation represented the original intentions of the prophets to predict Jesus? I think it is because very shortly, the vast majority of Christians, and Christian scholars, were Greek-speaking Gentiles who were accustomed to reading only the Greek Septuagint and reading it with only a Christian application in mind. They viewed the Old Testament dispensation simply as the time of waiting for the Christ, and the Old Testament characters as pretty much "Christians before Christ" (to borrow Justin Martyr's term for Socrates and other Greek spokesmen for the Logos). They read the Old Testament anachronistically, made it into a Christian book, and began to suppose that Isaiah had nothing in mind other than predicting Jesus Christ. Here and there one catches an early Christian voice protesting that the Old Testament author could not have had Jesus in mind, e.g., Marcion of Pontus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, who held out for a literal, non-messianic reading of most or all of the Old Testament, but these, obviously, are the exceptions that prove the rule.
Even if most did read the Old Testament as a Christian document even on the surface, Christian hermeneutics did not theoretically demand this. Most exegetes held in common with Origen some sort of multi-sense hermeneutic, whereby the surface, literal sense was often not even the most important one. One could still find the messianic sense in one of these esoteric levels of meaning, and many of the supposed "messianic" predictions that Hal Lindsay and others today seem to take as the surface meaning were relegated to secondary, non-literal interpretations by the ancients. Where the crisis really came was at the time of the Protestant Reformation, when to rule out Catholic appeals to non-literal meanings on behalf of the papacy or the sale of indulgences, Martin Luther rejected, on principle, any but the straightforward, surface sense of any text as recoverable by means of the grammatico-historical method. At the same time, it did not occur to him to break with traditional appeals to Old Testament prophecy to prove that Christians were right and Jews were wrong about Jesus. This is what created the intolerable bind in which fundamentalist apologists find themselves in today (though they seem oblivious to the difficulty, one suspects because they share the same merely opportunistic interest that ancient Christians had in the Old Testament as a source of Christian proof texts)."

infidels.org?  Oh, because that's a completely objective site?  No thanks.  Might as well send me a link to a scientology site.  May get bits and pieces of facts, but too much nonsense to sift through.

Either I "did" or "did not" provide a reference in my statement, as per your accusation that "I did not."  If you did not believe the reference was sufficient for your understanding, then you could've asked for more, but that doesn't mean I didn't provide a reference.   Your disapproval of said reference is a separate issue though.

If I said you did not provide a reference in your last post, you would probably tell me that I was wrong because you cited a link to infidels.org.  My disapproval of said site as a source is a separate issue.

And with that....DERP!

[Angrboda]

And with that....DERP!

You're very good at that. I can only assume that you've had a lot of practice.

[CDF47]

I don't know why preferences even enter into a discussion of whether or not gen 3 had anything to do with some jesus.  It didn't, still doesn't.  That's one of the more absurd beliefs that some christians hold.    Doesn't have anything to do with me or my life experiences..it's just flat out nonsense.

See Isaiah 53.

---

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https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dail...r-fiction/

So the entire evidence for what would have been the largest migration of humans in history is one word that is vaguely jew like and a house that is in the style of the jews but built from different materials.

No wonder you didn't add any thoughts as that's the least convincing "evidence" I've ever seen.

I provided a link just like a link was provided for me.

---

Deuteronomy is not talking about divine prophecy and interpretation of dreams by divine power.

And how do you know this?

I know this because there is divine prophecy throughout the OT and NT.  This is information given by God for His purposes.

---

Prophecy isn't fortune-telling.
The first prophecy was the Protoevangelium in Genesis 3.

Assertion. No references (as per your usual). 
Too bad for you, (since you actually know nothing about Hebrew culture) "prophecy" was not "telling the future" until the turn of the millennium. 

The ancient role of a prophet in Hebrew culture was to interpret the words or will of their god to the people OF THEIR OWN DAY. NOT to predict the future. (That's Hollywood's idea of the role of a prophet). 
So you often hear fundies talking about "prophesy", and how various prophesies were a 'foretelling", or prediction of the future, and indeed they count them up as "proof" that Jebus or whatever HAS to be true, as the "prophecy" came true. 
In fact Leviticus forbade fortune telling and divination, so we know it was an abomination to even think in these terms for many/most centuries in Hebrew culture. However, with the rise of Apocalypticism, around the turn of the millennium, this changed somewhat, and is evidenced in many Christian writings, including the gospels, as they adopted the notions absent in ancient Israel, but coming into popular view with the Essenes. In terms of Hebrew culture, and the "telling of or prediction of" the future, was unknown, and forbidden, and not at ALL a view of the major prophets themselves. However in the the new view, certain "hidden meanings" or "pesherim" began to be looked for, in the practice of Midrash. The name for this is called "pesher", (or seeking a "hidden meaning"), which was not even known to the original speaker/writer, but only "revealed" later
to certain believers. Originally, the (plural) "pesherim" were only fully revealed to the Son of Righteousness, (the leader of the Essenes), and the idea was first found and fully understood after scholars read the Dead Sea scrolls, and was a sub category of "Midrash", (or study of the texts). 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...15650.html
Thus we see that "prophesy" as fortune telling as began to be practiced in Judaism around the First Century, (and picked up by Christians and the gospel writers), really was a very late invention and never a classical part of Hebrew scripture, or understanding, either interpretation, or intention, and certainly was not the function of the ancient office of "prophet", in Hebrew culture, who was to be a "mouthpiece" to the people of their own day, and not Madame Zelda with her crystal ball.

Prophetic future knowledge is common throughout the Bible.

[Angrboda]

And how do you know this?

I know this because there is divine prophecy throughout the OT and NT.  This is information given by God for His purposes.

That's not a conclusion that is supported by the text, as has already been explained to you by Bucky Ball. You believe that the examples in the bible of prophecy are examples of predicting future events, contrary to the cited biblical passage, instead of mere interpretations providing a meaning for events rather than foretelling them. That you believe it is the latter rather than the former is just irrational shit that you are inserting on top of the text. You have no valid examples of what you claim. That you "believe" there are numerous examples of divine foretelling simply shows that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. But then, we already knew that. What evidence do you have that any specific example that you consider "divine prophecy" in the bible is actually a foretelling of an event or divination, as opposed to simply an interpretation of that event?