Quran's prohibition against terrorism and mass killing

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I have no idea what is the point of all this "Islam is moral" stuff. Are we supposed to all convert to Islam so that the world would be peaceful? Somehow I don't think that's the answer.

The larger issue, I think, is the hopelessly blinkered outlook that religious people almost always have regarding their own faith. It is a rare Muslim or Christian or Jew who will come right out and say, 'My holy book instructs me to slay the innocent on behalf of my loving god.'  The advantage atheists hold in this regard is that we're on the outside looking in. We can see these 'sacred' writings for what they truly are -  barbaric, savage manuals written by barbaric savages that do support, condone and instruct their followers to butcher the innocent for the crime of being different.

Boru

[WinterHold]

Okay, you were directing the question to Donald Trump and such? Sure, he's a maniac and it would be great if someone sane was in charge instead.

However, the book isn't going to stop anyone doing those things, even if they read it. They may interpret it differently to you, or just ignore it. Explaining why it's a bad thing to do without referring to a specific religion would be more effective, wouldn't it?

Trump is a populist, he has lots of support in the American grounds, if you just changed the skin color and the ethnicity you'll find millions of "Multicultural clones" of him. He won the elections for a reason: his tone of speech is so common worldwide.

My goal is not for him to stop; or for anybody to stop. But exposing what is wrong and testifying against what is bad are things that matter a lot to me. I truly believe that earth will be earth, Trump is just a drop in a sea; that's why a book that exposes his likes and advising and warning from becoming like him is essential.

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I watched Arclight raid back in the day. You should take a look.

I can bet that these B52s dropped the bombs on masses of villagers.
Thankfully Nukes were never used.

Did you fight against the NVA ?

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That's a nice passage. I wish more muslims would follow the nicer passages, but like christians, many find more meaning in the hateful and violent passages. Like the bible, you can find a verse to support pretty much any belief you have.

Books should be taken as a whole block: you don't get to cherry pick if it's a book from God.
If two verses contradict each other, then the book is not valid.

The Quran never contradicts each other. Rather; for criminals and invaders there's a sentence; for normal people there is another sentence.

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1) Note to whom this verse is directed. "We ordained to the Children of Israel ...". This verse has nothing to do with proving Islam is a peaceful religion. The target audience is not Muslims, it is Jews. Jews are being addressed here, the Children of Israel. And why is Allah using the term "we" if he is absolutely singular?

I discussed this point in the "hidden part" in my topic:

AtlasS said:

Just as a side note; Muslims are obligated to follow the authentic Torah and Bible verses:

Sura 2, The Quran:
( 136 )   Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

What was written on Jews is written on us unless the Quran said otherwise. Since we know that their book is quite forged by now; it is not legitimate to follow in my opinion and the opinion of most Muslims. If the Quran said that something is true in the Torah, then I must follow that true section from the Torah.

2) What does it mean to "spread mischief in the land?" After all, that seems to be an exception for which killing someone is justified by this verse. If Muslims want to ignore point 1 above and personalize this verse for the Muslim community, as they do frequently, we must understand what it means to spread mischief. This is important because "spreading mischief" is justified as means to kill someone who is engaged in "spreading mischief."

Looking at the context of the verse, "spread mischief in the land" would mean:

Sura 5, The Quran:
( 27 )   And recite to them the story of Adam's two sons, in truth, when they both offered a sacrifice [to Allah], and it was accepted from one of them but was not accepted from the other. Said [the latter], "I will surely kill you." Said [the former], "Indeed, Allah only accepts from the righteous [who fear Him].
( 28 )   If you should raise your hand against me to kill me - I shall not raise my hand against you to kill you. Indeed, I fear Allah, Lord of the worlds.
( 29 )   Indeed I want you to obtain [thereby] my sin and your sin so you will be among the companions of the Fire. And that is the recompense of wrongdoers."
( 30 )   And his soul permitted to him the murder of his brother, so he killed him and became among the losers.
( 31 )   Then Allah sent a crow searching in the ground to show him how to hide the disgrace of his brother. He said, "O woe to me! Have I failed to be like this crow and hide the body of my brother?" And he became of the regretful.
( 32 )   Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
( 33 )   Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

So now it makes sense..So killing for no reason is the mischief, something so similar to what hateful, sick people do. That's the mischief,
God says in verse 32: "because of that...", so he is pinpointing the mischief that would require what we see in verse 33.
Honestly, if non-Muslims treated serial killers and gangsters like this, won't we have a safer earth?

Ibn Kathir is an authoritative scholar and exegete of the Quran. Although he does not develop the term "make mischief" here, he does so in other similar verses. Sura 2:11-12 uses the same term, and Ibn Kathir defines what it means to "make mischief." Speaking of hypocrites and other disbelievers of Islam, Sura 2:11-12 says, "When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth,” they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!" Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not."

In his commentary on these verses, Ibn Kathir says, "Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. The hypocrites commit mischief on earth by disobeying their Lord on it and continuing in the prohibited acts. They also abandon what Allah made obligatory and doubt His religion, even though He does not accept a deed from anyone except with faith in His religion and certainty of its truth." In other words, to disobey Allah is to spread mischief. Anyone who does not pray five daily prayers, fast during Ramadan, obey Muhammad as Allah's messenger, believe in absolute Islamic monotheism, is spreading mischief.

Spreading mischief in the land is an exception to the prohibition to kill in Sura 5:32. Thus, Sura 5:32 allows the murder of those who spread mischief in the land - those who disbelieve in Allah and his messenger. This verse is not about peace at all.

What does Sura 5:32 really mean?

Did they kill somebody?
I won't call the murder "mischief" until a family member kill their own without a reason like the story above. Also; what serial killers and gangsters do.

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I have no idea what is the point of all this "Islam is moral" stuff. Are we supposed to all convert to Islam so that the world would be peaceful? Somehow I don't think that's the answer.

No; rob.

Just trying my hand against Islamophobia.
Islam doesn't call to the blowing up of civilians.

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I have no idea what is the point of all this "Islam is moral" stuff. Are we supposed to all convert to Islam so that the world would be peaceful? Somehow I don't think that's the answer.

He's trying to make Islam look better. This is necessary because he's deeply embarrassed with the way things are going right now, but he doesn't have the means or the will to try to change things. Thus the slapped on coat of paint.

No he's not.
He -me- is defending his values and faith of choice. BTW I don't get embarrassed easily. And looking at WW2 and stuff like it, it's not me who should be embarrassed, really.

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I have no idea what is the point of all this "Islam is moral" stuff. Are we supposed to all convert to Islam so that the world would be peaceful? Somehow I don't think that's the answer.

The larger issue, I think, is the hopelessly blinkered outlook that religious people almost always have regarding their own faith. It is a rare Muslim or Christian or Jew who will come right out and say, 'My holy book instructs me to slay the innocent on behalf of my loving god.'  The advantage atheists hold in this regard is that we're on the outside looking in. We can see these 'sacred' writings for what they truly are -  barbaric, savage manuals written by barbaric savages that do support, condone and instruct their followers to butcher the innocent for the crime of being different.

Boru

The same words that Rome used before invading the Germanic tribes.
Butchering the masses took place at the hands of secular regimes; not theistic.

[The Grand Nudger]

Now you sound like a common christian fundy.

[Chad32]

I'd be very surprised if the quran has no contradictions, given that it takes a "page" out of older books that are riddled with contradictions in an attempt to worship the same abrahamic god.

[The Grand Nudger]

One magic books claim to flawless editing is about as credible as any others.

[robvalue]

I haven’t read the Quran right to the end yet, but I would wager it doesn’t actually mentions bombs at any point.

[WinterHold]

I'd be very surprised if the quran has no contradictions, given that it takes a "page" out of older books that are riddled with contradictions in an attempt to worship the same abrahamic god.

It seriously doesn't.

Until now I couldn't find a convincing counter-argument against its verses. It rather clears the riddles dictated by twisted old texts.

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I haven’t read the Quran right to the end yet, but I would wager it doesn’t actually mentions bombs at any point.

It mentions what bombs do. Corruption and murder are the aftermath of swords, daggers, arrows and bombs.

[Minimalist]

Islam only targets criminals. It keeps civilians out of it.

Really?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-43967738

At least 27 people have been killed in suicide bomb blasts in the north-east Nigerian town of Mubi.

They don't seem to have gotten the word.  Perhaps you would do better telling them instead of us?

[yragnitup]

Peaceful Muslims misunderstand peaceful verses of the Quran & send each other to Rest In Peace on a daily basis.
You guys are naive to think that they would get it right when it comes to Infidels.  


SHIA MUSLIM SLAUGHTER STATISTICS

[robvalue]

If God really wanted people not to kill each other, he's just make it impossible.

I know, I know, free will. But we don't have free will, we have extremely limited will. Out of all the things I could possibly conceive of doing, I can only physically do a tiny percentage. But for some reason killing people was included as one of those options.