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RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 30, 2011 at 7:02 am
(October 28, 2011 at 9:39 pm)lucent Wrote: I'm not sure how I could be any more clear. God has decided that His creatures can defy Him, because of free will, so that's what should happen..but it obviously isn't what He prefers to happen. Again, perhaps the distinction is going over your head, but it is a pretty simple concept.
Nope, you have no idea of what you mean.
You have uttered two completely contradictory statements and you can't see the contradiction.
Statement one; No one dies unless god decides they should.
Statement two; because of freewill a person can kill some one else even though god hasn't decided it is their time to die. Which completely refutes your first statement.
BTW your freewill argument for why god does not reveal himself to humanity because then they won't have a choice in following him or not is a crock of shit.
Satanists by definition believe in god, but choose not to follow him.
They have exercised their freewill.
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RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 30, 2011 at 7:18 am
(This post was last modified: October 30, 2011 at 7:19 am by lucent.)
(October 30, 2011 at 7:02 am)Zen Badger Wrote: Nope, you have no idea of what you mean.
You have uttered two completely contradictory statements and you can't see the contradiction.
Statement one; No one dies unless god decides they should.
Statement two; because of freewill a person can kill some one else even though god hasn't decided it is their time to die. Which completely refutes your first statement.
Statement 2 is false, I never said that. I said God would prefer that such a thing would not happen, but due to free will allows it to happen.
(October 30, 2011 at 7:02 am)Zen Badger Wrote: BTW your freewill argument for why god does not reveal himself to humanity because then they won't have a choice in following him or not is a crock of shit.
Satanists by definition believe in god, but choose not to follow him.
They have exercised their freewill.
Most Satanists actually don't believe in God, they are just spiritual hedonistic atheists. In any case, if God were always around, people would be significantly less free, which would impact free will. Many more people would feel obligated to follow him, and those who specifically don't follow him would change their minds out of fear. Sin would also receive more immediate punishment. God being around would dramatically change the worlds behavior in every conceivable way. It's amazing you can't see that.
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RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 30, 2011 at 7:56 am
(October 30, 2011 at 7:18 am)lucent Wrote: (October 30, 2011 at 7:02 am)Zen Badger Wrote: Nope, you have no idea of what you mean.
You have uttered two completely contradictory statements and you can't see the contradiction.
Statement one; No one dies unless god decides they should.
Statement two; because of freewill a person can kill some one else even though god hasn't decided it is their time to die. Which completely refutes your first statement.
Statement 2 is false, I never said that. I said God would prefer that such a thing would not happen, but due to free will allows it to happen. So he still allows people to kill each other even though he hasn't decided that it is their time to die. What is the difference between what I said and what you said?
(October 30, 2011 at 7:02 am)Zen Badger Wrote: BTW your freewill argument for why god does not reveal himself to humanity because then they won't have a choice in following him or not is a crock of shit.
Satanists by definition believe in god, but choose not to follow him.
They have exercised their freewill. Quote:Most Satanists actually don't believe in God, they are just spiritual hedonistic atheists.
And the ones who do?
Quote: In any case, if God were always around, people would be significantly less free, which would impact free will. Many more people would feel obligated to follow him, and those who specifically don't follow him would change their minds out of fear. Sin would also receive more immediate punishment. God being around would dramatically change the worlds behavior in every conceivable way. It's amazing you can't see that.
I don't see it because there is no god to be around, I am even more amazed you can't see that.
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RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 30, 2011 at 10:11 am
Good to know god isn't always around. I've said it before, your god, as described, could materialize at my front door and I still wouldn't sing any praise. Apparently free will can still be exercised even in the face of your god. If he thinks that it couldn't, and that's his excuse for his "hiddenness" which you argue against in other threads, then he's not half as smart as you make him out to be.
I'd argue that faced with such a petty despot as your god it becomes even more important to have a freewill to exercise, your god needs to be called on his bullshit. That takes will.
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RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 30, 2011 at 11:01 pm
So, this god of yours lets things happen in spite of it's distaste or lack of approval and does nothing for fear of compromising free will. Then this god does nothing and has no purpose and it would make no difference whether or not it existed.
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RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 31, 2011 at 12:03 am
(This post was last modified: October 31, 2011 at 12:07 am by lucent.)
(October 30, 2011 at 7:56 am)Zen Badger Wrote: So he still allows people to kill each other even though he hasn't decided that it is their time to die. What is the difference between what I said and what you said?
Okay, I am going to try this one more time.
God gives man the choice to do good or evil. So, He allows people to make choices which violate His laws for the sake of free will. He also brings judgement and may decide to recall someone for the evil they've done. Generally He is patient, not wanting anyone to be condemned. Lets say you got stabbed and left for dead. Help is 10 minutes away and its serious. God could at that time call you up, or He could keep your spirit there until help arrived.
Does this mean God is responsible for your death? No, because by having transgressed His laws you put your life in His hands. The penalty for sin is death and it is up to God when He wants to enforce it.
(October 30, 2011 at 11:01 pm)IATIA Wrote: So, this god of yours lets things happen in spite of it's distaste or lack of approval and does nothing for fear of compromising free will. Then this god does nothing and has no purpose and it would make no difference whether or not it existed.
It's not a fear He has, it is a patience He has. He could at any time bring judgement against sinners.
(October 30, 2011 at 10:11 am)Rhythm Wrote: I'd argue that faced with such a petty despot as your god it becomes even more important to have a freewill to exercise, your god needs to be called on his bullshit. That takes will.
Sure, that's all well and good because none of us know what kind of life you've lived..but God knows all of it. Do you think perhaps you might be the one who had something to answer for?
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RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 31, 2011 at 12:24 am
(October 31, 2011 at 12:03 am)lucent Wrote: (October 30, 2011 at 11:01 pm)IATIA Wrote: So, this god of yours lets things happen in spite of it's distaste or lack of approval and does nothing for fear of compromising free will. Then this god does nothing and has no purpose and it would make no difference whether or not it existed.
It's not a fear He has, it is a patience He has. He could at any time bring judgement against sinners.
That was not an answer, but an attack on semantics through your misinterpretation of a word. My statement stands as is.
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RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 31, 2011 at 12:52 am
(October 31, 2011 at 12:03 am)lucent Wrote: Sure, that's all well and good because none of us know what kind of life you've lived..but God knows all of it. Do you think perhaps you might be the one who had something to answer for?
That is none of your business. Stop treating an entire forum of atheists with disdain, constantly questioning their lives and calling them sinners if you want to last here. What does him having something to answer for, assuming there is anything to answer to, have to do with the discussion at all? We're talking about an abstract idea that is god, not about a very real, personal individual who is part of this community. Of course, he can answer your question if he wants to, but I feel compelled to remind you that you are not here to question the lives of others, point out "sinners" or preach your brand of god to anyone. If you cannot stay on topic without snidely or surreptitiously suggesting someone you do not know is a "sinner," I suggest you step away from the keyboard.
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RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 31, 2011 at 1:41 am
(October 31, 2011 at 12:52 am)Shell B Wrote: (October 31, 2011 at 12:03 am)lucent Wrote: Sure, that's all well and good because none of us know what kind of life you've lived..but God knows all of it. Do you think perhaps you might be the one who had something to answer for?
That is none of your business. Stop treating an entire forum of atheists with disdain, constantly questioning their lives and calling them sinners if you want to last here. What does him having something to answer for, assuming there is anything to answer to, have to do with the discussion at all? We're talking about an abstract idea that is god, not about a very real, personal individual who is part of this community. Of course, he can answer your question if he wants to, but I feel compelled to remind you that you are not here to question the lives of others, point out "sinners" or preach your brand of god to anyone. If you cannot stay on topic without snidely or surreptitiously suggesting someone you do not know is a "sinner," I suggest you step away from the keyboard.
His claim was that if God came to his door he would either
a. try to murder him
b. or call god out for being immoral
my response is, lets put the shoe on the other foot. i dont see how that is at all out of line, given the conversation.
finally, i am not selecting atheists out to be sinners. all human beings sin, and i deserve the judgement of God just as much as anyone else.
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RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 31, 2011 at 1:52 am
We're not talking about the other foot, lucent. You honestly do not see how that nudges the conversation off track? You are trying to take the focus away from your god and place it on Rhythm, who has nothing to do with the question presented in this thread. The question is not, "Is there free will at Rhythm's house?" It would be irrelevant, even if Rhythm were a mass murderer, like the Christian god. You see, when in a court of law, the jury does not take into account the deeds of other killers when deciding the guilt of a killer. They only look at the case and person in question, unless a comparison is needed for evidence purposes. The deeds of Rhythm's life do not provide any evidence in favor of god being blameless. Therefore, it is irrelevant and leading.
I don't give a shit. Speak abstractly if you are going to talk about the "sins" of man. Remember, you are largely talking to people who do not believe in god or sin. You are applying your damnation to us. You could be wrong, so act like it. Stop trying to point out the "sins" of every atheist in this forum. Of course, feel free to talk about your own and, if the thread topic has to do with questioning each other's behavior and pointing out sins in other's lives, go for it. In the meantime, can the judgmental questions. Just not, lest you be a prick.
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