How Hopeless Is Voting?

[Edwardo Piet]

How hopeless is voting? Can we vote our way to freedom?

What do you guys think of this video?





Thoughts on the video?

[Abaddon_ire]

It worked for us last week.

[Angrboda]

Nirvana fallacy. Also rather dependent on specific political theories.

Barber and Pope wondered: Would Republicans be more likely to endorse a liberal policy if they were told Donald Trump supported it?

One-third of the participants read statements where they were told Trump supported a liberal position, like this:

Please indicate whether or not you support or oppose the statement.

To increase the minimum wage to over $10 an hour. Donald Trump has said that he supports this policy. How about you? Do you support or oppose increasing the minimum wage to over $10 an hour?

Support

Oppose

Don’t know

The control group of the experiment saw these questions, but they didn’t mention Trump. And another arm of the experiments tested what happened when Trump was said to support conservative policies.

The answer: “On average, across all of the questions that we asked, when presented with a liberal policy, Republicans became about 15 percentage points more likely to support that liberal policy” when they were told Trump supported it, Pope says. They follow their leader. “The conclusion we should draw is that the public, the average Republican sitting out there in America, is not going to stop Trump from doing whatever he wants.” The effect even held true on questions about immigration. If Trump supported a lax immigration policy, his supporters said they did too.

Trump is a real-world political science experiment: How far will Republicans follow their leader?

[Amarok]

[Edwardo Piet]

@Jor

Do you think the video is saying that the reason why it doesn't work is because it can't work perfectly?

I thought it was more subtle than that. But then, I haven't heard the full video yet and I had it on the background. Academy of Ideas has some good videos though and I thought it was a nice video to put along with the poll.

To be clear I'm not sure if voting is hopeless or not but I'm leaning towards "Not quite but almost."

Choosing between two lesser evils and having the option to choose the lesser evil definitely doesn't mean that voting doesn't work because a lesser evil is better than a greater evil. Indeed, Nirvana Fallacy, also known as the Perfect Solution Fallacy. However, I believe the video was also getting at a little more than that. The fact that elections aren't fair and the fact that even when we get the best option, despite being a better option, it won't make much difference in the end because even though one option is less shit than the other they're both shit. I think the general idea is that politics in general is rather hopeless.

But still... if it's a choice between Hilary and Trump then Hilary isn't just a better choice she's a much better choice.

I think the video is getting at something deeper than that though as it seems to be saying that in the long run it'll just be lots of different politicians shuffled around, some better than others, and at the end of the day it's all rather crappy and rigged.

Still though... a lot of life is like that. And just because at the end of it all it doesn't mean much doesn't mean that every step of the way isn't important.

I'm leaning towards "Not completely hopeless just pretty damn bleak."

If the mission of the video is to point out how bleak it all is I think it isn't incorrect but if the mission of the video is to suggest that a lesser evil isn't really a lesser evil, even in the short term or medium term, then I think it is incorrect.

[Minimalist]

Churchill was quite a hypocrite, though.

[Amarok]

Churchill was quite a hypocrite, though.

Not really all he's saying that one could argue against democracy by pointing to voters . Please note being the best argument against something does not mean there is not a better counter argument for it . I think is the point of the first quote . And Churchill's personnel possible hypocrisy does no invalidate his quote .

[brewer]

Yes, you should all stop voting.

[tjakey]

I voted "hopeless" but I vote anyway. I think its hopeless for the simple reason that both of the ruling parties in the US are beholding to the same people. I had some hope when I voted for Obama the first time around. But, as soon as he asked Rich Warren to offer up the prayers, I suspected we had be had. When he gave Wall Street a pass after they had trashed the economy, even upping their bail out, I knew we had been had. It came as no surprise then, that he continued Bush's wars and expanded the powers of the police state. Eight years later the Democrats offered up a second Clinton administration, with her being far to the right of the right leaning Obama. But I voted for her anyway because, well, Trump. She won, but didn't make it to the White House because of the Electoral Collage farce that is American Democracy in action. But, had she made it to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW, I suspect we would be in as nearly as much turmoil as we are now, particularly since she did not carry either the house or the senate. The Republicans would surly have impeached her and the shit storm would have been massive.

I will vote a straight Democratic ticket in November, but even if there is a "blue wave", I don't have any hope it will amount to much more than cosmetics. Wall Street will still rule, we will still be the #1 war mongering nation in the world, at best we will give a little lip service to global warming and the environment, and no one is going to reign in the military or the police state.

[Minimalist]

Not really all he's saying that one could argue against democracy by pointing to voters .

That was the argument the Founding Fathers used for creating a republic.  Imagine how horrified they'd be if they came back to see blacks and even <gasp> women voting?