History thread [split] from "New Rule - Promoting Terrorism"

[Huggy Bear]

Like I said what classifies as "terrorism" is subjective. How would you define the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Seeing how they were primarily aimed at the civilian population in order to force the Japanese government to surrender, falls in line with the definition  of terrorism.

the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Like I said what classifies as "terrorism" is subjective. How would you define the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Seeing how they were primarily aimed at the civilian population in order to force the Japanese government to surrender, falls in line with the definition  of terrorism.

the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Prefect capitals and military command centers, as well as munitions production centers. The special torpedoes used at Pearl Harbor were made at Nagasaki. One of the bombs went off directly over 5,000 troops lined up for morning parade. As for civilians, the Japanese War Minister had declared all adult Japanese to be part of the armed forces. The government also moved munitions production into the family homes to decentralize that work. We responded by decentralizing our bombing. 

The bombs did cause the War Minister, Gen. Anami, to go from the hardline faction in the Big Six to the surrender faction. This made the vote 3-3 and caused the cabinet to have to tell the Emperor they had no recommendation on how to proceed with the war. Hirohito made the call to surrender.

[RoadRunner79]

Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Prefect capitals and military command centers, as well as munitions production centers. The special torpedoes used at Pearl Harbor were made at Nagasaki. One of the bombs went off directly over 5,000 troops lined up for morning parade. As for civilians, the Japanese War Minister had declared all adult Japanese to be part of the armed forces. The government also moved munitions production into the family homes to decentralize that work. We responded by decentralizing our bombing. 

The bombs did cause the War Minister, Gen. Anami, to go from the hardline faction in the Big Six to the surrender faction. This made the vote 3-3 and caused the cabinet to have to tell the Emperor they had no recommendation on how to proceed with the war. Hirohito made the call to surrender.

Kudos... I learned some things here.

[Huggy Bear]

Like I said what classifies as "terrorism" is subjective. How would you define the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Seeing how they were primarily aimed at the civilian population in order to force the Japanese government to surrender, falls in line with the definition  of terrorism.

Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Prefect capitals and military command centers, as well as munitions production centers. The special torpedoes used at Pearl Harbor were made at Nagasaki. One of the bombs went off directly over 5,000 troops lined up for morning parade. As for civilians, the Japanese War Minister had declared all adult Japanese to be part of the armed forces. The government also moved munitions production into the family homes to decentralize that work. We responded by decentralizing our bombing. 

The bombs did cause the War Minister, Gen. Anami, to go from the hardline faction in the Big Six to the surrender faction. This made the vote 3-3 and caused the cabinet to have to tell the Emperor they had no recommendation on how to proceed with the war. Hirohito made the call to surrender.

Who were the fire bombings aimed at?

[Minimalist]

It’s just semantics. States commit war crime. Underground organizations or individuals commit terrorism.

Only losers commit war crimes.


Winners commit "collateral damage!"

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Prefect capitals and military command centers, as well as munitions production centers. The special torpedoes used at Pearl Harbor were made at Nagasaki. One of the bombs went off directly over 5,000 troops lined up for morning parade. As for civilians, the Japanese War Minister had declared all adult Japanese to be part of the armed forces. The government also moved munitions production into the family homes to decentralize that work. We responded by decentralizing our bombing. 

The bombs did cause the War Minister, Gen. Anami, to go from the hardline faction in the Big Six to the surrender faction. This made the vote 3-3 and caused the cabinet to have to tell the Emperor they had no recommendation on how to proceed with the war. Hirohito made the call to surrender.

Kudos... I learned some things here.

No prob. I spent over 50 years on "both ends" of WWII in the Pacific. You pick up a few things along the way.

---

It’s just semantics. States commit war crime. Underground organizations or individuals commit terrorism.

Only losers commit war crimes.


Winners commit "collateral damage!"

I was mostly there for the mayhem. Much better than my life at home. I could shoot back.

[Minimalist]

Gen. Anami declared "100,000,000 dead in defense of Japan!"

Yeah, we're big on slogans, too.

The submarine blockade had essentially ended Japan's capacity to conduct a war.  By July, 1945 carrier-based aircraft attacked Kure on the Inland Sea.  The handful of ships there were essentially immobile because of a lack of fuel caused by the previously mentioned sub campaign and an equally effective mining operation.  The Japs were helpless.  Had they not surrendered Anami might have gotten his wish.... through famine and frostbite in the coming winter. 

So Hiroshima and Nagasaki were little more than state-sanctioned mass murders....... just like Dresden.

[Anomalocaris]

Gen. Anami declared "100,000,000 dead in defense of Japan!"

Yeah, we're big on slogans, too.

The submarine blockade had essentially ended Japan's capacity to conduct a war.  By July, 1945 carrier-based aircraft attacked Kure on the Inland Sea.  The handful of ships there were essentially immobile because of a lack of fuel caused by the previously mentioned sub campaign and an equally effective mining operation.  The Japs were helpless.  Had they not surrendered Anami might have gotten his wish.... through famine and frostbite in the coming winter. 

So Hiroshima and Nagasaki were little more than state-sanctioned mass murders....... just like Dresden.

No, operation Olympic was scheduled before the on-set of winter. It would have landed 700,000 allied troops in Hokkaido, against 700,000 defending Japanese troops and 12,000 stockpiled kamikaze aircraft. At no other time in pacific war had the US attempted to launch amphibious assault against a defended Japanese position without a 3 to 1 numerical superiority.

Operation Olympic would likely, bluntly put, fail and incur 300,000+ casualties.

The Japanese defensive strategy was to inflict such a reverse on the first allied landing in the Japanese homeland that the allies would nagotiate rather than keep suffering that magnitude of casualty. The ratio of forces involved suggest they would pull off the first part - inflict a devasting reverse - on the first allied landing on the Japanese home islands.

In so far as attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was calculated to avert friendly casualties comparable to enemy casualties resulting from the effort at a time of declared war between two states, it is not the equivalent of most conception of terrorism.

War can not be waged if one would accept more military casualties for ones own side in order to avert fewer civilian casualty on the enemy side. By nature there would almost always be far more enemy civilians than friendly military personnel.

[Minimalist]

There was no need to launch it at all.  That's the point.  Japan was finished.

By that point we were far more concerned about Stalin's promise - which we now regarded as a threat - made at Yalta to enter the Pacific War 90 days after Germany surrendered.  Stalin was punctual about doing so attacking the Japanese in Manchuria on August 8, 1945 exactly 90 days after VE day.  Not so coincidentally that was the same day as Nagasaki and a mere two days after Hiroshima.

[Anomalocaris]

Stalin didn’t threaten to attack japan. The US induced Stalin to promise to attack japan, and offered Soviet Union substantial lend lease aid to enhance Soviet near shore amphibious attack capability to enable USSR to do so, as a way to cut down American casualties during what is considered the invasion of Japanese home islands that is necessary to end the war.

Until August 1945, japan wasn’t quite as isolated or as finished as you think. The Sea of Japan remains largely impenetrable to American air and sea power. Japan retain free access to the labor and resources of her colonies in Korea and Manchuria. Unlike Germany her industrial base was well dispersed, and she was still churning out respectable war production.