History thread [split] from "New Rule - Promoting Terrorism"

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If anybody wants book recommendations for this topic I can supply a few. Pick of the litter would be Togo Shigenori's The Cause of Japan. Togo was Gaimu Daijin under Tojo at the start of the Great Pacific War and Anami at the end of it. His monograph was not completed before he died, but still contains interesting information. Second would be Japan's Longest Day, by the Pacific War Research Society, a Japanese group that perforce remains largely anonymous last I heard. 

[Wyrd of Gawd]

The lesson of WWII is to never start a war unless you have superior weapon systems and the ability to defend yourself. Germany, Japan, and Italy thought that they were fighting WWI. Our current danger is that we seem to be thinking that we are fighting WWII.

[Huggy Bear]

It's amazing that the ones justifying the nuclear bombing of innocents are the same ones speaking on how evil the bible is (which none of you think is real btw).

[The Grand Nudger]

..........?  

Most of the people..if not all...involved in that decision were christians of one stripe or another.  It was the 40's. In any case, what innocents? The collateral? Generally speaking, people dont justify collateral, they regret it, but accept that it;s a consequence of war. Given the zeitgeist of the time, I';m surprised we dropped them one by one and gave opportunity for surrender.

[Minimalist]

The lesson of WWII is to never start a war unless you have superior weapon systems and the ability to defend yourself.  Germany, Japan, and Italy thought that they were fighting WWI.  Our current danger is that we seem to be thinking that we are fighting WWII.

The Germans alone had a superior tactical understanding of what had to happen at the outbreak of the war.  They simply could not deal with the idiot leading them - the US has a similar problem now.

The Italians were essentially unprepared for any sort of modern warfare.

The Japanese lost the war the minute the first plane took off on December 7.

All three lacked the industrial base to keep up with their ambitions.

[Anomalocaris]

It's amazing that the ones justifying the nuclear bombing of innocents are the same ones speaking on how evil the bible is (which none of you think is real btw).

Small and closed minds amazes easily.

---

The lesson of WWII is to never start a war unless you have superior weapon systems and the ability to defend yourself.  Germany, Japan, and Italy thought that they were fighting WWI.  Our current danger is that we seem to be thinking that we are fighting WWII.

The Germans alone had a superior tactical understanding of what had to happen at the outbreak of the war.  They simply could not deal with the idiot leading them - the US has a similar problem now.

The Italians were essentially unprepared for any sort of modern warfare.

The Japanese lost the war the minute the first plane took off on December 7.

All three lacked the industrial base to keep up with their ambitions.

Actually, the industrial base of Germany and occupied Europe was entirely sufficient to overwhelm the USSR and Britain.  It’s just that Germany made such piss poor use of it.  Germany had steel and armament industry 3 times the size of those of USSR in 1941.  In 1942 the german industry base got bigger and the Soviet industry got smaller.  Yet the Soviet Union produces 7 tanks for every one the Germans produced in 1942!

At the eve of Stalingrad near the end of 1942 the german army inspectors were still rejecting brand new tanks because the the welds around the towing hook of out of spec.

Throughout the war, the Germany and occupied Europe produced about as heavy military trucks as did the USSR, despite having a much larger automotive industrial base.   The US then provided to the USSR 4 times more heavy military Trucks as the whole of Germany and occupied Europe managed to produce during the entire war.

Someone estimated during wwii, total german war production from available industrial capacity amounted to only about 1/3 of what they would have been had the Americans ran the german war industry.

One might say the Germans lost because 1. Hitler was a war monger who really didn’t take war seriously. He wanted to conquer but made preciously little deep preparation for fighting. 2. He chose to declare war on the United States out of spite in a moment of heady exuberance in the the aftermath of Pearl Harbor when he should have offered massive concessions to prevent the US from declaring war on him.

[Minimalist]

Actually, the industrial base of Germany and occupied Europe was entirely sufficient to overwhelm the USSR and Britain.

But then they declared war on us.... and failed to stop the Russians from relocating major defense factories to the Urals..and failed to cut Britain off from its empire.

Mistake after mistake after mistake.

[Anomalocaris]

Actually, the industrial base of Germany and occupied Europe was entirely sufficient to overwhelm the USSR and Britain.

But then they declared war on us.... and failed to stop the Russians from relocating major defense factories to the Urals..and failed to cut Britain off from its empire.

Mistake after mistake after mistake.

The irony is the western democracies almost matched the USSR in the ruthlessness with which all national resources were promptly mobilized for war. Hitler’s Germany didn’t ever come close, and the furthest it managed to get didn’t come until the 5th year of the war and all hope for anything other than total defeat has been lost.

[Minimalist]

Absolutely right.  FDR asked for sacrifices of American civilians that Hitler would not dare to do.  Bad memories of the post-WWI food riots, I guess?

I often wonder what would have happened if Hitler had not declared war on the US.  On Dec. 8 the country was unified in its hatred of Japan and the desire for revenge and most people didn't give a flying fuck about Germany.  FDR did not even make an attempt to get congress to declare war on Germany when he addressed congress.   I imagine at some point an incident would have been manufactured but its hard to imagine what that would have been.  I asked my dad about it one time and he said that every one he knew after Pearl Harbor wanted to kill Japs.  He ended up in North Africa and Italy so he didn't get his wish.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Absolutely right.  FDR asked for sacrifices of American civilians that Hitler would not dare to do.  Bad memories of the post-WWI food riots, I guess?

I often wonder what would have happened if Hitler had not declared war on the US.  On Dec. 8 the country was unified in its hatred of Japan and the desire for revenge and most people didn't give a flying fuck about Germany.  FDR did not even make an attempt to get congress to declare war on Germany when he addressed congress.   I imagine at some point an incident would have been manufactured but its hard to imagine what that would have been.  I asked my dad about it one time and he said that every one he knew after Pearl Harbor wanted to kill Japs.  He ended up in North Africa and Italy so he didn't get his wish.

An overwhelming majority of Americans polled said that we would have to fight Germany "sooner or later." There was positive sentiment for arming US merchantmen to resist German attacks. The people knew Germany was the primary danger. The Japanese had been fighting China for ~four years and still hadn't won that war. The sinking of Reuben James was simply the last pre-war incident. There would have been more given FDR's "short of war" policy. 

FDR was always willing to stay behind the public opinion curve, I think he felt it gave him a better chance to get anything he wanted approved by Congress. 


People talk about the isolationists, but the premier group, the coalition called "The Committee to Defend America First" never got a bill through Congress and never blocked a bill they didn't like. Their rolls had <800,000 names when they closed their doors on Dec. 8th, 194.