The moral argument, for atheism!

[Angrboda]

If you know "personally" that something is objectively true, then you don't know how thinking works.

There is levels of knowledge, and people who denied the path to knowledge, don't get to make the rules of how reflection and how thinking works.  The Quran I recite, is not the Quran the leader of time recites which is a much higher level of recitation and the true recitation in full accuracy, however, what I know of Quran is relative to me yes, but at the same time, it's as objective as it gets.

What are you talking about here? If your beliefs about the Quran are relative to you then they are subjective. As noted previously, if they were objective, then you could demonstrate them to us without the Quran, without a bunch of word salad, and without attributing our not finding it objective to dark forces. That your opinions seem to depend upon these factors strongly suggests that what you believe isn't objectively true.

You don't get to make any rules either, certainly not based solely upon your certainty that you are right.

[LadyForCamus]

No, LadyForCamus, the Quran must be referenced, but it's not due to it be reference it's true, it's due to the higher type of literature and way of guidance which is beyond capability of humans. I explained how it is, and I also offered over the years other arguments for the Quran, but the fact is you are trying to equate the two so you don't have to look at the proof.

That is not by quoting Quran, that is by reflection, logic and reason precedes Quran. God is ultimate reason and is capable of providing a sign/proof in the form of guidance from him.

“Reflecting” is not evidence in support of anything, and you have no actual evidence that your book is magic.  You just declare it by fiat.

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The fact they aren't even amazed by it, just shows there is something sinister a force a magic, that keeps people from properly perceiving it. It's ok, I been through that phase. I know now the Quran amazements are not only undeniable but it's enemies and the enemies of the family of the reminder, have to use evil tactics to keep people from perceiving it as is.

You are beyond a rational discussion at this point.  The demons make me hate the Quran, okay?  Does it make you feel better to think evil forces are controlling my mind rather than accept the fact that I’m just not convinced anything in the damn book is true?  Is that a hypothesis based on reason and evidence, or on the paranoid delusions of an ill mind?  You need help very badly, MK.

[Mister Agenda]

It does indicate some people didn't get the morally unambiguous memo from the morally perfect and all-powerful being.

So then the flat earth people just haven't gotten the memo?

I cannot figure out the point of your reply.

[Mystic]

No, LadyForCamus, the Quran must be referenced, but it's not due to it be reference it's true, it's due to the higher type of literature and way of guidance which is beyond capability of humans. I explained how it is, and I also offered over the years other arguments for the Quran, but the fact is you are trying to equate the two so you don't have to look at the proof.

That is not by quoting Quran, that is by reflection, logic and reason precedes Quran. God is ultimate reason and is capable of providing a sign/proof in the form of guidance from him.

“Reflecting” is not evidence in support of anything, and you have no actual evidence that your book is magic.  You just declare it by fiat.

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The fact they aren't even amazed by it, just shows there is something sinister a force a magic, that keeps people from properly perceiving it. It's ok, I been through that phase. I know now the Quran amazements are not only undeniable but it's enemies and the enemies of the family of the reminder, have to use evil tactics to keep people from perceiving it as is.

You are beyond a rational discussion at this point.  The demons make me hate the Quran, okay?  Does it make you feel better to think evil forces are controlling my mind rather than accept the fact that I’m just not convinced anything in the damn book is true?  Is that a hypothesis based on reason and evidence, or on the paranoid delusions of an ill mind?  You need help very badly, MK.

Reflecting is the only way to either deny or affirm what Quran claims to be as a proof and miracle from God legitimately. Of course many people follow religions or even Islam, without proof, but this is condemned. And many people deny religions without proofs, this equally condemned.

If you don't want to do it, then don't do it, but if Quran is a proof from God, it cannot be approached by whims to discover that.

As for the devils of Jinn and Humans,  you have to take them seriously enough to consider them, not saying to believe in them, but if you consider them, you may be able to recognize them and be able to defeat them.

[LadyForCamus]

“Reflecting” is not evidence in support of anything, and you have no actual evidence that your book is magic.  You just declare it by fiat.

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You are beyond a rational discussion at this point.  The demons make me hate the Quran, okay?  Does it make you feel better to think evil forces are controlling my mind rather than accept the fact that I’m just not convinced anything in the damn book is true?  Is that a hypothesis based on reason and evidence, or on the paranoid delusions of an ill mind?  You need help very badly, MK.

Reflecting is the only way to either deny or affirm what Quran claims to be as a proof and miracle from God legitimately. Of course many people follow religions or even Islam, without proof, but this is condemned.  And many people deny religions without proofs, this equally condemned.

If you don't want to do it, then don't do it, but if Quran is a proof from God, it cannot be approached by whims to discover that.

As for the devils of Jinn and Humans,  you have to take them seriously enough to consider them, not saying to believe in them, but if you consider them, you may be able to recognize them and be able to defeat them.

Ima go reflect on Harry Potter instead.  Hey, there’s sorcery in that book too!

[Angrboda]

No, LadyForCamus, the Quran must be referenced, but it's not due to it be reference it's true, it's due to the higher type of literature and way of guidance which is beyond capability of humans. I explained how it is, and I also offered over the years other arguments for the Quran, but the fact is you are trying to equate the two so you don't have to look at the proof.

The first two of these videos cover arguments that Mohammad and the Quran itself make in favor of accepting the Quran as a divine revelation.

"If this is a bad argument, this is God offering a bad argument, that's saying something about God."













Conclusion:  The Quran is not a higher form of literature.  Mystic is simply a higher form of lunatic, and Islamic apologetics is a higher form of lying.



See also: Answering-Islam || The Qur'an : An Evaluation of the Muslim Claims

[Mystic]

Again, you confirm people can't analyze Quran for what it is but have to make another Quran out of it that's not the true recitation from God to refute it. That shows you guys can't deal with the true Quran, because, that one is incredible and truly beyond humans.

So you make a make shift easy to refute version by conjecture interpretations and ignorance.

[Angrboda]

Again, you confirm people can't analyze Quran for what it is but have to make another Quran out of it that's not the true recitation from God to refute it.  That shows you guys can't deal with the true Quran, because, that one is incredible and truly beyond humans.

So you make a make shift easy to refute version by conjecture interpretations and ignorance.

I posted those videos less than 10 minutes prior to your reply. You can't possibly have watched the videos in that time, so your response is not even based on the evidence presented, but rather is simply a knee-jerk faith based response. So, no, sorry Mystic, you're just full of shit.

[Mystic]

Keep relying on your ignorance Jo, it will get you to the place you deserve.

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And I been through critical approach and very well aware of what Satan can do make people falsely perceive the Quran and I know of anti-Quranic arguments.

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For the life of me, I can't understand people who oppose the proofs of God and oppose the proofs of the path he offers,  except, they are severe in evil and of dark state that has succumb to a dark magic. No rational reason can do with it and the way you guys act proves it all.

[CapnAwesome]

Major Premise:  If an objective moral lawgiver ("God") exists who is the source of objective morality, then God must be morally good.

Minor Premise:  If a moral, infinite being exists, then such a being has moral obligations, namely, to reveal, unambiguously, objective moral truths to Us, His Creation.

Conclusion:  Since such a clear revelation has never occurred, therefore, god does not exist.

I've never really thought of it as a moral question like that before, but the fact that there is not a continual clear revelation made by God of it's existence to us is my main reason for being an atheist.

It is infathomable to me that an all powerful god would choose to reveal his existence to the modern world by telling barely literate people in the middle ages about himself and not just us directly.

Theists normally counter with some free will argument, which is nonsense, cause we'd still have the choice to worship or not. In fact we can't even make such a choice without knowing that God exists. So good not revealing himself is a violation of our free will.