The moral argument, for atheism!

[SteveII]

Major Premise:  If an objective moral lawgiver ("God") exists who is the source of objective morality, then God must be morally good.

Minor Premise:  If a moral, infinite being exists, then such a being has moral obligations, namely, to reveal, unambiguously, objective moral truths to Us, His Creation.

Conclusion:  Since such a clear revelation has never occurred, therefore, god does not exist.

All that your premises/logic require is the morality is discoverable. 

I hear ALL the time here at AF that morality is easily discoverable.

[Foxaèr]

All that your premises/logic require is the morality is discoverable. 

I hear ALL the time here at AF that morality is easily discoverable.

Could you expound on what you mean by discoverable?

[Mystic]

That's exactly the proper answer, it's the rational one, and the truth, and God doesn't force people acceptance of the proof while they are averse to it. If they hate it, they hate it, he is not going to force them to accept it nor force a person to seriousness in the sacred journey or reverence in a how a holy book should be approached.

Hey, remember that time I asked you for external evidence for your god, and you couldn’t present any? And, then I explained to you how using the Quran to prove the claims of the Quran is begging the question, and instead of addressing the fallacy in your argument, you got pissed off and insulted me?  You wanna try again?  Where’s your external corroborating evidence? Or put another way, why should I believe this crap is true?

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God created us, and given us eyes to perceive this world and the next.  The eyes that sees the next world,  are not as simple as the eyes that perceive this world.  It's perception is directly related to morality and goodness and love. The sight power is directly related to love.

The Quran is just at the end words. Words point to concepts, concepts can lead to truth.  God designed the book so that it facilitates and nourishes those who reflect and sincerely search the truth, he facilitates guidance for them at all levels. Now this would mean at all levels, there is more knowledge to be had of the Quran. The Quran then never ceases to guide and increase in knowledge.

It happens to be that the knowledge from the book being mixed with no falsehood can lead to visions of certainty of a higher kind.

Now if I said this is true because Quran said so it would be circular.

However, if I can show Quran indeed iterates knowledge and guidance and proofs at all levels of intellects, and guides endlessly, I would say, a book that guides humans with regards to all guidance needed by them, is no small thing.

In fact, humans, they write things, at it ends at a certain point. That is it's amazements come to an end.  Quran on the other hand if you experience it, it's amazements and wonders increase the more you recite it, it opens doors to itself otherwise locked.

It also dispels the sorcery cast upon it and proves the existence of sorcery that is an enemy of Mohammad and his family.

All I can do in this regard is iterate some reflections over Quran to prove it is a guidance at a very high level.  And then over time iterate again, a higher level of it. And then again, a much higher level of insights to it, building upon the former.

Maybe give me time and you will see what I'm talking about. He made the Quran superior in knowledge and guidance, the knowledge and guidance can be experienced as a human.

We can even perceive the door of light before walking it, and it proves it.

There is other arguments in the form:

God is capable of revealing a proof for guidance.
God would reveal a proof for guidance.
There is no physical miracle today as proof of guidance.
Therefore the miracle and proof of guidance must be the reasoning and guidance in a recitation from God.
There is only one book that heavily emphasizes on this argument.
Therefore that book is true.


But you don't accept God to begin with. So you don't understand it's paradigm the Quran works with.

You don't think words can have wonders and make you experience wonders.

But literature is powerful.  And God being the Creator, knows how to amaze us and make us realize a book is from him.

Of course, as it is a guidance, it must ultimately robustly be guiding and thorough in guidance, but to unlocks it's hidden treasures, you have to approach the family of the reminder.

I will try to show that coupled with their words, and coupled with reflection, Quran is a much higher book then people estimate it to be. I can't show it's full degree, all I can do is show ways of reflection that will perhaps inspire you to recite the book with a higher level of reverence and reflection that might manifest the wonders to you through the guide of our time.

[Ravenshire]

There have been plenty of cultures that thought murder was fine, as long as the victims belonged to other tribes.

There have been plenty of christers who thought murder was just fine, as long as it was people of other lands (crusades) or heretics (inquisitions).

[Foxaèr]

There have been plenty of cultures that thought murder was fine, as long as the victims belonged to other tribes.

There have been plenty of christers who thought murder was just fine, as long as it was people of other lands (crusades) or heretics (inquisitions).

Most importantly, murder is just fine so long as it's done in god's name.

[SteveII]

All that your premises/logic require is the morality is discoverable.

I hear ALL the time here at AF that morality is easily discoverable.

Could you expound on what you mean by discoverable?

That we are endowed with the tools to ascertain basic morality.

[Ravenshire]

There have been plenty of christers who thought murder was just fine, as long as it was people of other lands (crusades) or heretics (inquisitions).

Most importantly, murder is just fine so long as it's done in god's name.

Just like all the bozos we get coming through her lying for jeebus. 😂

[Mystic]

Major Premise:  If an objective moral lawgiver ("God") exists who is the source of objective morality, then God must be morally good.

Minor Premise:  If a moral, infinite being exists, then such a being has moral obligations, namely, to reveal, unambiguously, objective moral truths to Us, His Creation.

Conclusion:  Since such a clear revelation has never occurred, therefore, god does not exist.

All that your premises/logic require is the morality is discoverable. 

I hear ALL the time here at AF that morality is easily discoverable.

I think they were arguing is that the degree of moral guidance important to the extent God is identical with moral guidance in essence, would imply, that he would do his best to manifest the guidance and that guidance would be clear to the extent there should be no disputes or differences and make people who will live the life be upon a clear proof and those who would die the death of ignorance, do so with clear proof.

I agree. The problem is humans are rebelling against themselves really and submitting to the Spirit of the Dark one, through the dark magic. 

We are in a real battle for souls and for moral guidance, one side trying to manifest God's light and the other trying to put it out with their mouths.

Take a side playfully today and live a serious hard life to come. Take a hard stance today and life an enjoyable prosperous life to come.

Those are the incentives which otherwise should not be needed were it not for our selfish nature.

[Mr.wizard]

Major Premise:  If an objective moral lawgiver ("God") exists who is the source of objective morality, then God must be morally good.

Minor Premise:  If a moral, infinite being exists, then such a being has moral obligations, namely, to reveal, unambiguously, objective moral truths to Us, His Creation.

Conclusion:  Since such a clear revelation has never occurred, therefore, god does not exist.

It doesn't really follow in my opinion, because if God is the source of morality and he must be morally good then how can you place moral obligations on that god in premise #2, aren't all of his moral decisions objectively good as you established in premise #1. Also if that god is the source of morality what morality are you using to form your moral judgments?

[Jehanne]

Major Premise:  If an objective moral lawgiver ("God") exists who is the source of objective morality, then God must be morally good.

Minor Premise:  If a moral, infinite being exists, then such a being has moral obligations, namely, to reveal, unambiguously, objective moral truths to Us, His Creation.

Conclusion:  Since such a clear revelation has never occurred, therefore, god does not exist.

It doesn't really follow in my opinion, because if God is the source of morality and he must be morally good then how can you place moral obligations on that god in premise #2, aren't all of his moral decisions objectively good as you established in premise #1. Also if that god is the source of morality what morality are you using to form your moral judgments?

If I knew of a terrorist attack that was about to occur, it would be immoral for me not to reveal such to the authorities.