Intelligence² Debate: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

[theVOID]

The awesome Ayaan Hirsi Ali is in on this 2 vs 2

http://www.atheistmedia.com/2010/12/inte...igion.html

[DeistPaladin]

I'm thinking that no religion that threatens people with Hell can be considered a peaceful religion.

Any religion with a faith-based salvation scheme that features a sort of Hell for non-believers after death is going to inevitably lead to violence, however much principle founders may preach peace and love.

[theVOID]

Or in this case where the founder is a raping, murdering, war-mongering, xenophobic pedophile.

As much as I dislike Christianity i'd have a beer with Jesus...

[Anomalocaris]

Or in this case where the founder is a raping, murdering, war-mongering, xenophobic pedophile.

As much as I dislike Christianity i'd have a beer with Jesus...

I think if I could go back to Mohammud's time and be accustomed to the morals of the age, I would find the man not one to emulate, but an interesting character to observe in a reality TV show kind of way. He seems to be a kind of enterprising small time hustler common to his era who got lucky. But I think I would find jesus contemptiable and nausiating even by the standards of his time and the morals of his age. He was just a complete wreckage of a personality.

[DeistPaladin]

Or in this case where the founder is a raping, murdering, war-mongering, xenophobic pedophile.

True. My point is that even if Muhammad did preach peace as some Muslims claim, it makes no difference because the salvation scheme ratchets the stakes so high that a little torture and murder can be justified if it saves souls for all eternity. Since Hell is a fate worse than death, killing to save someone from it (or to save all those who the unrepentant little heathen might corrupt) is actually a good thing.

Hence, Christianity is a violent religion despite anything Jesus may have said. Once Hell is in the mix, everything else is a secondary priority.

[theVOID]

I don't think ascertaining power through war is "getting lucky", He started and won 26 something wars with polytheistic and Jewish populations all justified through "revelations", commanding all believers that they were ordered by God to go and kill every man until they submitted. If you'd enjoy that reality TV show I'm worried for you...

The worst thing Jesus said or did was pretty much "The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth", that's a damn site better than Mo... Then again Jesus may have simply died too soon ('if' he lived) to do any conquesting

[Rayaan]

A long and a boring debate. This is better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hyDcJncreo

I don't think ascertaining power through war is "getting lucky", He started and won 26 something wars with polytheistic and Jewish populations all justified through "revelations", commanding all believers that they were ordered by God to go and kill every man until they submitted. If you'd enjoy that reality TV show I'm worried for you...

That's wrong because Muhammad never started the wars. He only took up arms in self-defense.

The Quran forbids Muslims from attacking anyone who allows others to live in peace:

"Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them." (An-Nisaa' 4:90)

"Hence, if they do not let you be, and do not offer you peace, and do not stay their hands, seize them and slay them whenever you come upon them: for it is against these that We have clearly empowered you [to make war]." (An-Nisaa' 4:91)

Once Hell is in the mix, everything else is a secondary priority.

There's also Heaven, though. Not only Hell.

And if there was no Hell, then no one would care about religion and people could do whatever they want, and still go to Heaven.

He seems to be a kind of enterprising small time hustler common to his era who got lucky.

It's more than just "getting lucky" because he had complete faith in God and that's why God was on his side all the time to make him so successful.

[theVOID]

That video makes things worse Rayaan. First lets ignore the fact that the video isn't about what Mohummad did (which is what we were discussing).

He basically says that:

"Islam means peace through submitting your will to Allah" - His words.

Lets ignore the fact that this is not what peace means. Because he doesn't even attempt to use any standard definition of peace in his argument (ruling out a distinction between what Islam means and what peace means) we are required to use it as he has, so for the rest of his augment Peace == Submission to Allah.

The rest is basically as follows

1. Not all people want "peace" (to submit to Allah)
2. Sometimes it is necessary to use war to bring "peace" (to make people submit to Allah)
3. Fanatical Muslims "forcing Islam at the point of the sword" is the biggest myth in history. (Asserted without support)
4. Muslims were driven out of Spain by Christians (inconsequential)
5. Muslims could have converted everyone by the sword if they wanted (Asserted without support)
6. Islam spread without violence in India (asserted without support - Highly debatable) and Malaysia (true as far as I know)
7. Muslims and Arabs have "testified" that Islam didn't spread by the sword (biased)
8. He quotes Surat Al-Baqarah 2:256 saying that nobody is compelled to chose Islam but the path will be laid open. No surprises why he didn't read the next verse as it makes it clear that this only applies to theists (those who believe) and not those atheists and their supporters, we are destined to burn in hellfire forever and are not 'graced' with "not being compelled" like other theists.
9. The next verse quoted is used to dodge this, saying that followers of Islam should reason with those who do not follow Islam. However (and correct me if i'm wrong Rayaan) the later verses take precedent over the earlier ones, so if at any point two statements are contradictory the latter one is necessarily correct. That means this verse is overruled for atheists by Surat Al-Bagarah 2:256
10. I got bored of checking his quotes, but he makes the argument that Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe (though not as fast as atheism, and it's from immigration and not conversion) and uses this to say that Islam never used the sword (non sequitur)

That video did not even come close to establishing that 1) Mohammed didn't start wars or 2) That Islam has never spread by the sword.

At least he knows Hitler was Christian...

Did you not watch that video before posting it Rayaan, or were you just hoping we wouldn't watch it?

[Anomalocaris]

I don't think ascertaining power through war is "getting lucky", He started and won 26 something wars with polytheistic and Jewish populations all justified through "revelations", commanding all believers that they were ordered by God to go and kill every man until they submitted. If you'd enjoy that reality TV show I'm worried for you...

The worst thing Jesus said or did was pretty much "The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth", that's a damn site better than Mo... Then again Jesus may have simply died too soon ('if' he lived) to do any conquesting

Hey, I think it is much more interesting to watch a small time warlord make it big through ruthlessness and guile then to watch a wreckage case with multiple psychiatric disorder babble, amount to nothing, and then get crucified.

[theVOID]

Sure, in the same way it would be more interesting to watch Dahmer than Phelps