Most humans aren't too logical when it comes to world views and how to go about it.

[Simon Moon]

I rarely if any time did a thread with the cosmological argument.

It's irrelevant to me, and not part of my reasoning on my path.

The truth is, your epistemology is crap.

You have demonstrated time after time, your logical arguments are flawed. And your holy book is filled with absurdities, bad advice, no evidence for any of the supernatural or god claims, horrible moral edicts, etc. Hardly the example of texts inspired by a god.

It's a stance that may or may not be rational for the person taking it.

That is a person may be justified to say well I don't know any proof for God so I don't believe in her/it/him.

Yes, some people are atheists for bad reasons. So what?

All that matters is, that there are good reasons for not believing in gods. Lack of evidence, flawed 'logical' arguments, appeals to ancient texts ('holy' books), appeals to feelings, provided by theists are perfectly good reasons for being unconvinced that gods exist.

A person on the other hand, maybe blamable if they aren't sincerely reflecting over the proofs offered for God especially in his holy books.

What do you mean be being "blamable"? Why should someone be blamed for the purposable hiddenness of your god?

Your god has the power to clear this entire thing, right? He could convince everyone of us, right? Why did he pick one of the most unreliable methods; texts written by fallible humans?

I spent decades as a believer. It was my sincere search (you may call them "reflections") of the so called 'proofs' for the existence of a god (all logically flawed, including yours), and reading most holy books, including the, Bible, the Qur'an, the Vedas, and most of the Avesta, that lead me to my atheism.

[Fireball]

Most Humans are not too bright when it comes to how to approach philosophy and religion.

Most humans will choose and be hasty in their choice, and jump to conclusions even when not have enough knowledge.


This includes Muslims. This includes Shiites. This includes all sects of all religions. And this includes Christians, Jews, and yes, even Atheists.

Atheism is not some sort of display label that makes your approach to this issue all of sudden the logical out come.

It's a stance that may or may not be rational for the person taking it.

That is a person may be justified to say well I don't know any proof for God so I don't believe in her/it/him. 

A person on the other hand, maybe blamable if they aren't sincerely reflecting over the proofs offered for God especially in his holy books.

At any rate, how much time we invest in study of religion over other things in life is not a matter of reason per se.

It's a matter of love. We set our priorities according to what we deem most important, which is another word for what we value more, and that is another word for love.

Somethings we may not love but our priority out of necessity sure.  But other things formed in our list order of priorities is due to how much we love.



How to recognize that which ought to be valued most? Again, if we already hate it, it's going to be least in our priority to prove it. We might even become hostile to the truth when proven.


Rationally, a lover of God is searching to know it.   Even as an Atheist, one can long for God and search to know it.

The trial is not about how intelligent we are in the sense of logical quickness, it's rather how wise we are as in how morally smart we are, how wise we are for the betterment of our souls, and that is the intelligence which as armies of light and armies of darkness to oppose it.



Not everyone who claims to know God actually knows him, true.

Most preachers mix enough poison in the water, and religion over all in it's current state is evil, true.



I am a worthless person compared to most people, who do productive things to help others and society, true.  I don't talk coherently or clearly true.

I am over-preachy, true.

I am more stupid then intelligent true.

But you should know all my efforts here to bring you to God, is because I believe the pathway to God is the most valuable gift to creation.

I love the family of the reminders, mainly, because they reminded of God and lived their lives to spread the gift of knowing him and loving him and tasting him.


God is the best reward,  and I love Mohammad, the Hashimi, Arab, the Qurayshi, because I believe he strove with every breath, to make God known to humanity and to recognize his religion and rope.

I love the rope not for the sake of rope, although, that would be a good love too, but for the sake of connecting us to the one beyond us all but yet the best possible goal.


If I believe there was another path to God then love of Ali and his successors, if there was alternate help then the help of Fatima and the leaders from her offspring, if there was another authority to obey then God and his Messenger Mohammad, I would held it with equal esteem.

But the past guides, they pass their authority to the future guides, and Mohammad being the final Messenger, acknowledged that he does ask a reward then, and it's love of his family.

I may seem dogmatic, but the name of God always has a designation.

It's about the name of God reality, not the particular place, not the Arabi hashimi aspect, not the Desert place aspect, not anything else, when I love Ali,  it's not due my culture, but due to him transcending my culture and being a universal tiding and word of God that brings together all things, and collects the glory and beauty and blessings in all things.


If my way is wrong,  your quick mockery remarks, will not show it to be wrong.

If you wish to show me that I erred, you must understand my path, and show where I erred.


It's not good enough to assert that I am doing wishful thinking. All my wishes and desires is in fact, to abandon Islam, and it's been like that for a while, because I would rather embrace a hedonistic style of life and enjoy and chase pleasures.

The reason I ignore those desires is because of insight of the true higher beauty and the path which forbids letting chaotic passions take over your heart and destroy your inner world, I hold on to Islam despite dark desires to abandon it being overwhelming, and sins being easy to do where I live.



At any rate, this thread wasn't about proving God or my path, just a comment, that irrationality is found everywhere including Atheists, and people of my creed as well. But that if you wish to assert that I am being irrational, you have to show where I erred and it's not good enough to comment on other religious people and their difference, nor their gullibility nor the fact most humans don't give a damn about insights and proofs to believe in things attributed to God or reality.


If anyone wishes to amplify the role of discussions on these forums and bring it to a higher level, let me know.

What a fucking surprise. Most people are in a position of barely eking out a living and have no time for trying to figure out the bigger picture. Add in some person who has no interest in getting pig shit on his heels, and he starts making up shit about how the world works. Then he finds a couple of bullies to help him enforce it on the poor people who have no time to do anything but take the words he hands out, or take the cudgeling that the bullies will deliver, all while taking their sustenance from them. That shit has been tamed a bit in the ensuing millennia, but those people still have power. Sick. Go to a free country and escape your programming.

[Alan V]

A person on the other hand, maybe blamable if they aren't sincerely reflecting over the proofs offered for God especially in his holy books.

At any rate, how much time we invest in study of religion over other things in life is not a matter of reason per se.

....

If you wish to show me that I erred, you must understand my path, and show where I erred.

You are shifting the burden of proof.  Atheists have no burden of proof if we are not making the assertions that God exists, that he has a path, that he has holy books, etc.

Assertions are not enough.  Arguments are not enough.  Only convincing evidence is enough, evidence consistent with other things we know.

So yes, it is a matter of reason.

You erred by thinking that your interpretations equal realities.  If that was true, everyone would be right no matter how much they disagreed with each other.

[HappySkeptic]

That is a person may be justified to say well I don't know any proof for God so I don't believe in her/it/him. 

A person on the other hand, maybe blamable if they aren't sincerely reflecting over the proofs offered for God especially in his holy books.

There are no proofs of God in any holy book that I have ever seen or heard of.  None.

And if there is a God, and if it cares at all about people worshiping it, then it should've provided actual evidence of itself, not words written by agenda-driven holy men.

At any rate, how much time we invest in study of religion over other things in life is not a matter of reason per se.

It's a matter of love. We set our priorities according to what we deem most important, which is another word for what we value more, and that is another word for love.

Somethings we may not love but our priority out of necessity sure.  But other things formed in our list order of priorities is due to how much we love.

You are free to love whatever you like.  You can imagine God in any form, any culture, and love him/her to your heart's content.  But, which aspect is correct?  Which properties are real?  How you do know you have the right god, or even love the right thing?  Are you going to live your entire life assuming that an ancient writing holds the truth about life, while ignoring the knowledge of the present?

It's not good enough to assert that I am doing wishful thinking. All my wishes and desires is in fact, to abandon Islam, and it's been like that for a while, because I would rather embrace a hedonistic style of life and enjoy and chase pleasures.

The reason I ignore those desires is because of insight of the true higher beauty and the path which forbids letting chaotic passions take over your heart and destroy your inner world, I hold on to Islam despite dark desires to abandon it being overwhelming, and sins being easy to do where I live.

Are you better or worse for your shunning of hedonism?  Are those around you better or worse?  Do you have an inner peace from your beliefs?  Do your doubts haunt you?  If you were shown proof tomorrow that your God didn't exist, would you still decide that your spiritual path was the best one you could follow?

I'm an atheist, and I don't live for hedonism.  Well, lets say that I enjoy whatever life has to offer, but that includes not just desires for sex, consumerism, and acclaim, but also love, purpose, integrity, value, and ultimate meaning.  I don't have to have a god to achieve a balance.

At the end of my life I'll say "I got what I wanted out of life.  Now I hope the next generations do as well".  Nothing is there to judge me except my personal meaning.

[Whateverist]

Boy that is one humdinger of an OP, MK. I like the way you left spaces in the text, kind of like a screen rather than a wall of text. Still it is too long and ramble-y to make the effort I'm afraid. You try harder to hit one point clearly and concisely and I swear I'll try harder.

But consider my POV, the whole enterprise of literal creationism is such whacked out B.S. that I cannot possibly waste my time on that. All the what-ifs in the world cannot possibly make a decent argument. So you're left with "I really, really think so". We know you do.

[Minimalist]

and yes, even Atheists.

Atheism is not a philosophy nor a religion.

It is the observation that there are no gods and that people who insist there are lack intelligence.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Thus is why I tend to self identify as a "Non theist".

[Mystic]

A person on the other hand, maybe blamable if they aren't sincerely reflecting over the proofs offered for God especially in his holy books.

At any rate, how much time we invest in study of religion over other things in life is not a matter of reason per se.

....

If you wish to show me that I erred, you must understand my path, and show where I erred.

You are shifting the burden of proof. 

If there is a burden proof on me to show my path to be true, then there is burden for people to listen to the proofs and see them as they truly are.  It's not good enough to dismiss what is offered as proofs, rather, one must show they properly understood or if they have not, to dialogue for clarification, but this mocking attitude, is all signs of how Quran has described how people act to the clear proofs when presented.
If there is a burden proof and I have to elaborate, then there should a burden to listen and not only that but a burden to show you are sincerely listening and have understood the arguments and to point which premise is disputable, unclear, or unproven, and simply asserting a premise is doesn't disprove it, so there is need for dialogue.

What Atheists have shown me in these years, they don't take the responsibility to listen to those burdened with proof.

[LadyForCamus]

Your. Book. Is. Not. Proof.

[The Grand Nudger]

...but it's a magic book!