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Atheism is unstoppable.
#21
RE: Atheism is unstoppable.
(October 10, 2018 at 1:39 pm)PRJA93 Wrote:
(October 9, 2018 at 5:32 pm)Belaqua Wrote: You're writing as though all religion is a failed attempt to do what science does better. While I hope those parts of religion will go away, I think we have to recognize that the various religions provide other things which science by definition can't.

Religion evolves and adapts. Many types are fully compatible with science. 

And, sad but true, sometimes the countries where science is well developed use their knowledge to kill more effectively. The survivors in the attacked areas may well see the products of science as evil, and the protection of their god as comforting. That's not going to change any time soon.
You seem to be assuming that I'm saying either religion or science can fulfill human needs, and nothing else. Which is not at all what I'm saying.

I think I wasn't clear before. 

I don't think that either religion or science, and nothing else, can fulfill human needs. 

What I meant to convey is that the two do different things. I don't think that improved science reduces the desire for religion. 

This has been confused in recent years because literalism -- the desire to take the Bible as giving science-like answers about the origins of things -- has increased. Augustine and others were clear that the Bible isn't to be read in this way. The New Testament teaches through parables which are obviously symbolic. In fact I think that the increased desire to interpret obvious symbolism as if it were science is a back-handed compliment to science. We live in an age when science has authority, and we think that any true sentence should be read as a science-like sentence. So silly people think that therefore Genesis must be in competition with scientific explanations. Ancient people were often wiser than we are about how they read literature, but we aren't so good at that. 

But anyway: "Terry Eagleton once remarked that regarding religion as an attempt to offer a scientific explanation of the world is rather like seeing ballet as a botched attempt to run for a bus."

Quote:Also, so what if religions are compatible with science? They're still useless, whether or not the proponents of that religion are aware of it. And my argument is that everyone will see the pointlessness of religion at some point.

It's a big claim, to say that all religion everywhere of every type is "useless." Various religious functions appear to appeal to people in different ways. They have survived for a long time. If they had no benefit for people at all, people would stop going. 

Quote:People seeing products of science as "Evil" has to do with their perception of the world, not with science. 

Do many people see the products of science as evil? Even Christians watch TV and use iPhones. Some people no doubt see certain uses of science as evil. (I think that no scientist should devote his career to developing autonomous robot bombs that use AI to decide, without human input, whom to kill. But there are scientists working on that.)

Quote:What need, exactly, do you think religion fills that NOTHING ELSE in life can fill? That's the question.

That's a big question. We'd have to work out exactly what people get from religion, and then figure out what could replace that. 

I'd say that some people feel a sense of community and purpose which, for them, feels sanctioned by the supreme Good of the universe. It must be comforting to feel that. Offhand, I don't think of any non-religious view that could replace that. 

As for other functions of religion, like providing charity or weekly pep-talks or structured morality -- yes, other organizations might provide those things. And in a perfect world, in the far future when we have reached Rational Utopia-Land, no doubt other organizations will step in. At the moment, though, religion does those things, and will for the foreseeable future. 

And sad as it is to say so, religion in some cases provides the only alternative voice that people hear in contrast to the main moral structure of our time, which is capitalism. In many cases, only people's view of what God wants serves as a persuasive alternative to what the market wants. 

Have you ever taken the bullet train through the urban sprawl around Osaka? From the window the only green oases you can see are Shinto shrines. Only the local gods have the power to overcome the economic desire to pave over everything. Even though the gods do not exist. 
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#22
RE: Atheism is unstoppable.
(October 11, 2018 at 3:44 am)robvalue Wrote:
(October 11, 2018 at 2:41 am)Pandæmonium Wrote: Not all are fading, though. Whilst traditional Christian churches have shown massive declines in the 20th century, Islam shows a lot of growth in the last 20 years, which is a cause for concern.

Why do you think that is? I feel that Islam is less flexible that Christianity, so is resistant to dilution and probably retains better. But is the growth due to immigration? I find it hard to believe it is actually drawing a significant number of people in from the outside.

Not migration, more a combination of isolationism within society mixed with higher birth rates which serves to propagate the population. In addition I feel that Islam as an entity is more than just a belief, it’s a way of life trust informs everything from political decision making to social norms. At least in a way that Christianity used to but no longer does. What you say is, in my view, correct; there is little flexibility in most Islamic dogmas, though naturally depends on what Islam you follow. I remember a figure from a while back which indicated that a lot of new mosques here tend to be deobandi which is of concern.

Probably more nuanced than that but as a high level overview I don’t think it falls wide if the mark. I wouldn’t necessarily exclude migration as a contributing factor but I don’t know what the figures are so can’t say either way.
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#23
RE: Atheism is unstoppable.
(October 9, 2018 at 4:50 pm)PRJA93 Wrote: For the first time in a few hundred thousand years, humans have instantaneous, complete access to mountains of information at the touch of our fingertips.

Yeah, like this:
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/relig...2010-2050/

Quote:by 2050 …

Atheists, agnostics and other people who do not affiliate with any religion – though increasing in countries such as the United States and France – will make up a declining share of the world’s total population.
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#24
RE: Atheism is unstoppable.
(October 11, 2018 at 8:25 am)alpha male Wrote:
(October 9, 2018 at 4:50 pm)PRJA93 Wrote: For the first time in a few hundred thousand years, humans have instantaneous, complete access to mountains of information at the touch of our fingertips.

Yeah, like this:
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/relig...2010-2050/

Quote:by 2050 …

Atheists, agnostics and other people who do not affiliate with any religion – though increasing in countries such as the United States and France – will make up a declining share of the world’s total population.

Percentage-wise, yes (due to increase in certain religious groups in poorer countries). But not absolute decline.

Just making that clear.

From that link:

Quote:Similarly, the religiously unaffiliated population is projected to shrink as a percentage of the global population, even though it will increase in absolute number. In 2010, censuses and surveys indicate, there were about 1.1 billion atheists, agnostics and people who do not identify with any particular religion.5 By 2050, the unaffiliated population is expected to exceed 1.2 billion. But, as a share of all the people in the world, those with no religious affiliation are projected to decline from 16% in 2010 to 13% by the middle of this century.

At the same time, however, the unaffiliated are expected to continue to increase as a share of the population in much of Europe and North America. In the United States, for example, the unaffiliated are projected to grow from an estimated 16% of the total population (including children) in 2010 to 26% in 2050.

As the example of the unaffiliated shows, there will be vivid geographic differences in patterns of religious growth in the coming decades. One of the main determinants of that future growth is where each group is geographically concentrated today. Religions with many adherents in developing countries – where birth rates are high, and infant mortality rates generally have been falling – are likely to grow quickly. Much of the worldwide growth of Islam and Christianity, for example, is expected to take place in sub-Saharan Africa. Today’s religiously unaffiliated population, by contrast, is heavily concentrated in places with low fertility and aging populations, such as Europe, North America, China and Japan.

Also:

Quote:Over the coming decades, Christians are expected to experience the largest net losses from switching. Globally, about 40 million people are projected to switch into Christianity, while 106 million are projected to leave, with most joining the ranks of the religiously unaffiliated. (See chart above.)

All told, the unaffiliated are expected to add 97 million people and lose 36 million via switching, for a net gain of 61 million by 2050. Modest net gains through switching also are expected for Muslims (3 million), adherents of folk religions (3 million) and members of other religions (2 million). Jews are expected to experience a net loss of about 300,000 people due to switching, while Buddhists are expected to lose nearly 3 million.

So, yes, atheism is unstoppable. And there's nothing you can do about it.
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#25
RE: Atheism is unstoppable.
(October 11, 2018 at 8:35 am)Grandizer Wrote: So, yes, atheism is unstoppable.

LOL - that's not the way OP was using unstoppable.

Quote:And there's nothing you can do about it.

Like I care.
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#26
RE: Atheism is unstoppable.
(October 11, 2018 at 7:55 am)Pandæmonium Wrote:
(October 11, 2018 at 3:44 am)robvalue Wrote: Why do you think that is? I feel that Islam is less flexible that Christianity, so is resistant to dilution and probably retains better. But is the growth due to immigration? I find it hard to believe it is actually drawing a significant number of people in from the outside.

Not migration, more a combination of isolationism within society mixed with higher birth rates which serves to propagate the population. In addition I feel that Islam as an entity is more than just a belief, it’s a way of life trust informs everything from political decision making to social norms. At least in a way that Christianity used to but no longer does. What you say is, in my view, correct; there is little flexibility in most Islamic dogmas, though naturally depends on what Islam you follow. I remember a figure from a while back which indicated that a lot of new mosques here tend to be deobandi which is of concern.

Probably more nuanced than that but as a high level overview I don’t think it falls wide if the mark. I wouldn’t necessarily exclude migration as a contributing factor but I don’t know what the figures are so can’t say either way.

I see, thanks. Yeah, I was wondering about birth rates, like that quiverfull horse shit in the US. With our Islam, would you say this is intended (on the whole) to flood the religious numbers, or for other reasons?
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#27
RE: Atheism is unstoppable.
(October 11, 2018 at 10:06 am)robvalue Wrote:
(October 11, 2018 at 7:55 am)Pandæmonium Wrote: Not migration, more a combination of isolationism within society mixed with higher birth rates which serves to propagate the population. In addition I feel that Islam as an entity is more than just a belief, it’s a way of life trust informs everything from political decision making to social norms. At least in a way that Christianity used to but no longer does. What you say is, in my view, correct; there is little flexibility in most Islamic dogmas, though naturally depends on what Islam you follow. I remember a figure from a while back which indicated that a lot of new mosques here tend to be deobandi which is of concern.

Probably more nuanced than that but as a high level overview I don’t think it falls wide if the mark. I wouldn’t necessarily exclude migration as a contributing factor but I don’t know what the figures are so can’t say either way.

I see, thanks. Yeah, I was wondering about birth rates, like that quiverfull horse shit in the US. With our Islam, would you say this is intended (on the whole) to flood the religious numbers, or for other reasons?

Very difficult to say without knowing more about it to be fair. Anecdotally, the culture within a lot of South Asian communities in the UK is patriarchal and involves entire family units living within the same house.

Again, mostly anecdote bourne from given facts that are well known, but western populations are aging and birth rates are dropping, almost exclusively as a result of an upturn in the emancipation of women and female sexual health and sexuality in general. I think it fair to say that this level of emancipation hasn’t penetrated the south Asian communities in the UK, meaning a more patriarchal collective which still promotes the idea that young women should marry and reproduce at a young age.

There was an interesting programme on C4 a while back which looked at the place of 3rd/4th gen Asian migrants living in the UK and how they view their place in 21st Britain, and it was really fascinating. I’ll try and find a link after I’ve posted this, but there was a young Muslim chap at the end who gave his view along the lines of his grandparents came as 3rd world migrants hoping to make a better life for themselves and their families, but never changed the mentality of being from the 3rd world. So I’m effect that mentality has continued throughout the generations which has reinforced the sense of otherism within those communities as even other migrant communities such as folks from the Windies and to an extent those from Africa have begun to evolve and adapt to a ‘modern’ and more liberal way of thinking and aspiration. Explains why levels of disenchantment with wider society is highest amongst south Asian communities, and why levels of education, employment and health also tend to be poorer in especially Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities than any other.

There’s loads of factors I think, would be interesting for a more in depth study for sure.
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#28
RE: Atheism is unstoppable.
I agree with the OP; I think that the entire World will, eventually, follow in the footsteps of the Enlightenment, which means that the demographics of the World will largely reflect that of Europe:

Wikipedia -- Demographics of atheism

[Image: Europe_No_Belief_enhanced_2010.png]

The above map denotes levels of unbelief.
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#29
RE: Atheism is unstoppable.
Yea, I think we need to be careful with statistics. So I understand the proclivity of Christians to quote certain figures and use that in their arguments but it seems like you guys aren't even reading the very study you cited.

Nonbelief is becoming more and more acceptable everywhere as time goes on. I'm not saying we'll see a world without religion in 100 years, or even 500... but I am sure it is going away, even if the process is painstakingly slow.

Soon enough, religion will simply be a nonissue. It won't be something people even consider as a feasible way to look at the world. Christianity, Islam, so on and so forth... will all be lumped in with the Greek gods and the mythological stories that accompany them. And that's okay. In fact, I look forward it, if I do ever get to see it.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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#30
RE: Atheism is unstoppable.
(October 11, 2018 at 1:42 pm)PRJA93 Wrote: Yea, I think we need to be careful with statistics. So I understand the proclivity of Christians to quote certain figures and use that in their arguments but it seems like you guys aren't even reading the very study you cited.

I read the study I cited. It projected that nonbelievers will be a smaller percentage of the world population in 2050 then they are now.

Quote:Nonbelief is becoming more and more acceptable everywhere as time goes on. I'm not saying we'll see a world without religion in 100 years, or even 500... but I am sure it is going away, even if the process is painstakingly slow.

Soon enough, religion will simply be a nonissue. It won't be something people even consider as a feasible way to look at the world. Christianity, Islam, so on and so forth... will all be lumped in with the Greek gods and the mythological stories that accompany them. And that's okay. In fact, I look forward it, if I do ever get to see it.

You can believe whatever you want, but people who actually study this stuff for a living have come to a different conclusion.
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