Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 29, 2024, 12:44 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Subjective Morality?
#31
RE: Subjective Morality?
(October 15, 2018 at 1:13 pm)wyzas Wrote:
(October 15, 2018 at 12:42 pm)mfigurski80 Wrote: Lots of good ideas up there!

Anyway, someone brought up religion (@robvalue, @downbeatplumb, @MysticKnight) -- this really can be transformed into an a-religious topic, as objective morality can (and maybe should, maybe even inside of religious context) be derived from reason (think math, thats pretty objective). Not to say that that doesn't have its own problems, like for example the is/aught gap and others, but no problems that subjective morality doesn't encounter also.

And subjective morality seems to have an extra nagging problem in that one can't evaluate anything to be moral/immoral without fully trusting oneself. How do people get around this?


Someone mentioned a common point against objective morality: societies differing across space/time also differ in moral structures. This can be easily chalked up to erroneous interpretation of objective morality; just like ancient societies will likely not be able to solve derivatives of functions, or even understand what derivatives are, that doesn't mean derivatives don't exist and that there isn't an objective way to calculate them correctly. Some people just lack the tools to do so.
@BrianSoddingBoru4, either way, you just made objective claims about morality within specific situations. The question is: can I decide to say it's still not okay for someone to steal bread to feed a starving child and be RIGHT?

bold mine

Are you stating that you have the tools (mental ability) to make objective moral determinations that will apply to every person/society and in all situations?

Nope. There's the catch.
I cannot make objective moral determinations. I cannot make anything objective at all. Nobody can.

I can interpret it and analyze it. And, just like in harder science, I have to be a bit distrustful about all observations, but ultimately the current moral theories (specific laws, not meta about it) are presumably taking into account the largest body of information and are the best conclusion given the data/reasoning. Just like we can say people were objectively wrong about the sun orbiting earth, we can say people were objectively immoral to do certain actions -- we don't KNOW that the sun doesn't orbit the earth, I've never personally stood outside, being stationary, and observed that it does, but we have so much evidence that it's pointless to question at this point. Nevertheless, we are still observing an objective situation, even if not absolutely reliably.

Unless, of course, morality is subjective, in which case I can make all the subjective moral determinations I want



Also, to @robvalue:

Quote:"What do we achieve by saying, "I’m right and they are wrong"? If we expect them to actually change their ways, we need to provide our reasoning, otherwise we're just massaging our egos."

Can reason (ignore the is/aught thing for now) discover morality then, or does it need to create it? If reason just creates moral laws, is there a point to providing reasoning? It's like arguing a math theorum with someone who valiantly believes 2+2 is 7, and, if math is subjective, is technically RIGHT about it.
Is morality objective, like math, then?; should we be providing reasoning?
Reply
#32
RE: Subjective Morality?
I will be back in two days. Robvalue, continue to discuss with others. And then when I'm back, we will continue inshallah.
Reply
#33
RE: Subjective Morality?
(October 15, 2018 at 1:05 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Atheists or more specifically materialists, can't account for an objective moral realism.
Theists only claim they can, but cant demonstrate their claim to be true.

Show me one, just one moral system that is objective and demonstrate that the base of your system is true/real. Doh
If you cant, then i consider arguing that objective morality is superior to subjective morality like arguing that your garage dragon is a better pet than my german sheperd.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
Reply
#34
RE: Subjective Morality?
(October 15, 2018 at 12:14 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(October 15, 2018 at 11:40 am)mfigurski80 Wrote: Hey all,

New user here, I thought this to be a good resource for a layman's morality question:

Whats the deal with Subjective Morality?

I know subjective morality is in nowadays, but I don't really understand how it's functional. Isn't the purpose of morality to rationally distinguish between good and bad actions? Can subjective morality do that, or are people defining things differently?


Thanks, any insight appreciated,
Mikolaj

Of course morality is subjective.  If it weren't, all cultures would have the same moral strictures, and all actions would be either moral or immoral.

Suppose I have a loaf of bread and you steal it from me.  If you committed the act because you hate me and wanted me to be hungry, that act would be immoral. But if you stole the bread to feed a starving child, that act would be moral.

Boru
Situational doesn't mean subjective. Anyways, I Really got to go!!!
Reply
#35
RE: Subjective Morality?
(October 15, 2018 at 1:47 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:
(October 15, 2018 at 1:05 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Atheists or more specifically materialists, can't account for an objective moral realism.
Theists only claim they can, but cant demonstrate their claim to be true.

Show me one, just one moral system that is objective and demonstrate that the base of your system is true/real. Doh
If you cant, then i consider arguing that objective morality is superior to subjective morality like arguing that your garage dragon is a better pet than my german sheperd.

Do you think that throwing children into a wood chipper for the fun of it, is a matter of personal moral feelings or preferences? Could it be moral, depending on the person?

Also, it’s not about having a moral system. But what is morality to begin with. If there is no real morality outside of yourself, then defining a system seems more like your analogy to me.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
Reply
#36
RE: Subjective Morality?
(October 15, 2018 at 12:42 pm)mfigurski80 Wrote: And subjective morality seems to have an extra nagging problem in that one can't evaluate anything to be moral/immoral without fully trusting oneself. How do people get around this?

How do you get around it? You either trust yourself or you place your trust in someone/something else but to do that you have to decide what you can trust to make the decisions for you. Either way you have to make an evaluation of what the best course is or you have to abandon the idea of being a moral agent.
Reply
#37
RE: Subjective Morality?
(October 15, 2018 at 1:47 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:
(October 15, 2018 at 1:05 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Atheists or more specifically materialists, can't account for an objective moral realism.
Theists only claim they can, but cant demonstrate their claim to be true.

Show me one, just one moral system that is objective and demonstrate that the base of your system is true/real.   Doh
If you cant, then i consider arguing that objective morality is superior to subjective morality like arguing that your garage dragon is a better pet than my german sheperd.

I'll try. Again, it's fairly impossible to bridge the is/aught gap, but that's a problem common to both subjective and objective moralities. This is my attempt to not cross it by tautology.

Assumptions:
Moral Laws promote good
The things that are good, are good.
More good is more good that less good; aka: bringing about good/more good is good
Actions bring about change

Logic:
Actions that bring about good/more good are good actions.
Therefore, moral law must promote good actions to be a moral law.



There, I think I've made an objective claim about morality. It's fairly useless, but objective nevertheless.
Reply
#38
RE: Subjective Morality?
(October 15, 2018 at 1:50 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
(October 15, 2018 at 1:47 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Theists only claim they can, but cant demonstrate their claim to be true.

Show me one, just one moral system that is objective and demonstrate that the base of your system is true/real.   Doh
If you cant, then i consider arguing that objective morality is superior to subjective morality like arguing that your garage dragon is a better pet than my german sheperd.

Do you think that throwing children into a wood chipper for the fun of it, is a matter of personal moral feelings or preferences?   Could it be moral, depending on the person?
We already established that subjective morality exists. What does your question to me have to do with my question? Ah, yeah....deflection.


(October 15, 2018 at 1:50 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: If there is no real morality outside of yourself, then defining a system seems more like your analogy to me.
If you could provide the example i asked for then you already would have, right?  Consoling
I dont care if you wish subjective morality to be true, i am asking if you have any of it that is true.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
Reply
#39
RE: Subjective Morality?
(October 15, 2018 at 12:03 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(October 15, 2018 at 11:57 am)wyzas Wrote: Morality exists on a sliding scale.

That help?

Guidance to be reliable, must have not only a reliable source (God) but a reliable means (Kings like Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, etc).

Erm, no. A reliable source can come from how our parents taught us. Your using god as a reliable source is meek at best. God is a fictional character based on stories made up 6000 years ago by man. That doesn't carry any weight with me when factoring in my own morality.
Disclaimer: I am only responsible for what I say, not what you choose to understand. 
(November 14, 2018 at 8:57 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Have a good day at work.  If we ever meet in a professional setting, let me answer your question now.  Yes, I DO want fries with that.
Reply
#40
RE: Subjective Morality?
(October 15, 2018 at 2:03 pm)mfigurski80 Wrote:
(October 15, 2018 at 1:47 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Theists only claim they can, but cant demonstrate their claim to be true.

Show me one, just one moral system that is objective and demonstrate that the base of your system is true/real.   Doh
If you cant, then i consider arguing that objective morality is superior to subjective morality like arguing that your garage dragon is a better pet than my german sheperd.

I'll try. Again, it's fairly impossible to bridge the is/aught gap, but that's a problem common to both subjective and objective moralities. This is my attempt to not cross it by tautology.

Assumptions:
Moral Laws promote good
The things that are good, are good.
More good is more good that less good; aka: bringing about good/more good is good
Actions bring about change

Logic:
Actions that bring about good/more good are good actions.
Therefore, moral law must promote good actions to be a moral law.



There, I think I've made an objective claim about morality. It's fairly useless, but objective nevertheless.

The definition of Moral:  concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.

So goodness promotes good -  I think you failed in making a tautology.  

The question is what makes something good.   Is what is good for you (in this sense) good for me?

(October 15, 2018 at 2:03 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:
(October 15, 2018 at 1:50 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Do you think that throwing children into a wood chipper for the fun of it, is a matter of personal moral feelings or preferences?   Could it be moral, depending on the person?
We already established that subjective morality exists. What does your question to me have to do with my question? Ah, yeah....deflection.


(October 15, 2018 at 1:50 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: If there is no real morality outside of yourself, then defining a system seems more like your analogy to me.
If you could provide the example i asked for then you already would have, right?  Consoling
I dont care if you wish subjective morality to be true, i am asking if you have any of it that is true.

I did provide an example, and asked you a question.  The question has to do with whether or not morality is subjective or objective.   If you see my first post in this thread, I think that we are talking about two different things.  Which is why what I said, is confusing you.   And why what you said, doesn't apply to the moral argument and talking about what morality is (subjective or objective).
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Beauty, Morality, God, and a Table FrustratedFool 23 1756 October 8, 2023 at 1:35 pm
Last Post: LinuxGal
  Is Moral Nihilism a Morality? vulcanlogician 140 10151 July 17, 2019 at 11:50 am
Last Post: DLJ
  Law versus morality robvalue 16 1327 September 2, 2018 at 7:39 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Objective morality: how would it affect your judgement/actions? robvalue 42 8219 May 5, 2018 at 5:07 pm
Last Post: SaStrike
  dynamic morality vs static morality or universal morality Mystic 18 3501 May 3, 2018 at 10:28 am
Last Post: LastPoet
  Can somebody give me a good argument in favor of objective morality? Aegon 19 4409 March 14, 2018 at 6:42 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Morality WinterHold 24 2791 November 1, 2017 at 1:36 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Subjective Issues Azu 13 2354 September 26, 2017 at 10:07 am
Last Post: Astonished
  What is morality? Mystic 48 6896 September 3, 2017 at 2:20 pm
Last Post: Edwardo Piet
  Morality from the ground up bennyboy 66 10835 August 4, 2017 at 5:42 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)