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Make Atheist Forums Great Again (Part 1)
RE: Make Atheist Forums Great Again (Part 1)
(December 12, 2018 at 12:54 pm)Shell B Wrote:
(December 12, 2018 at 12:52 pm)DodosAreDead Wrote: Apparently my special talent is getting into arguments when I don't even have strong opinions on an issue. Sigh. 
Fine, I retract the 'hostile or aggressive' thingy. I couldn't care less whether you call christianity, christians, or my mom stupid. I'm talking about defining the rule Tibs talked about in the first post in this thread. My point is that if you're not gonna allow slurs towards groups of people in thread titles, don't allow slurs towards ideas either, because it defeats the purpose. That's it. Exeunt dodo.

Sorry if you think that was an argument. I'm just making a point in response to your point. There's a difference between attacking people and attacking ideas. There's no doubt it's a big difference.
Fair enough. 
And I agree there is a big difference, content wise. But intention-wise, it seems to me that anyone attacking an idea means to insinuate that the believers/followers of that idea area also stupid, or acting stupid in relation to that idea, at the very least. Hence, the vibe remains much the same.
The word bed actually looks like a bed. 
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RE: Make Atheist Forums Great Again (Part 1)
sqeaky wheel and all...
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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RE: Make Atheist Forums Great Again (Part 1)
(December 12, 2018 at 12:52 pm)Whateverist Wrote:
(December 12, 2018 at 12:45 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Defending free speech and the ability of users to make full use of the power of language through the least restrictive means necessary isn't celebrating incivility, and I personally am offended by your slur, Whateverist.


My slur?  You'll have to point me to the one you mean.  I know I've left many in plenty of posts but I'm not sure which one you have in mind.

(December 12, 2018 at 11:45 am)Whateverist Wrote: What I'm picking up on very clearly is that there is still a strong vibe that the forum as a whole ... hold derision and name calling very near and dear. I don't give a damn about debate, discussion is what I go to forums for and it is pretty tough to carry on when so many are chomping at the bit to toss the shit. I have no trouble with any choice of vocabulary and I can also be provoked to name calling ... is never something I aim for or celebrate.

Those are both broad generalizations about a large class of people without anything really backing them up. As already stated, I think you're simply wrong. And this disingenuous bit about how what you said may or may not have been a slur is straining at gnats to avoid any discussion of the actual point I was making.
[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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RE: Make Atheist Forums Great Again (Part 1)
(December 12, 2018 at 12:50 pm)Shell B Wrote: Whateverist, you've given me no reason not to think the worst. I'm inclined to be less than warm to certain individuals who've recently been less than warm about me, the forum, the staff and certain members. I don't care if you're not inclined to argue with me about it. I don't want to argue with you about it. You and I had a behind-the-scenes discussion that was funny and fine. We disagreed, but had a few laughs about it, I thought. I made a post about wishing your turkey was dry. Obviously kidding, given the nature of our behind-the-scenes talk. Then, my husband says, "I thought you and Whateverist were fine." while reading a thread from another forum where you were talking shit. I said I thought we were too, and then he showed me the thread. Forgive me if I don't care what your inclinations are. You were involved in something I'm still pissed off about, and I'm not pissed for my sake. Someone is absent from this forum because they were ganged up on in a cruel and malicious way, so I won't hear a single word about people being too insulting for any of your tastes because not a single one of you has a leg to stand on in that regard. Good day, sir.


I do feel I've gotten to know you fairly well.  I find you interesting, like you well enough and don't feel any less warm toward you.  But I am and have expressed criticism of the way you carry yourself as a mod.

As for having a discussion elsewhere with others about what goes on here, I don't see anything wrong with that.  Do you?  Don't you hang out in slack with your own cadre talking about whatever you like?  I see no difference. 

It does come down to tastes in the end.  For me I'm more interested in having the kinds of conversations I can have with people in person, where I rarely feel the need to be insulting.  When people are disingenuous or don't really try to understand my point of view then screw them.  But I get no satisfaction from flaming them and when I'm provoked to, I find it far from satisfying.  So to me, a discussion about freedom of speech should not revolve around the ability to insult one another.  At best, I think it is something we should put up with as inevitable but unfortunate.

I assume the person who is missing and missed is Catholic_Lady.  She has been part of my nefarious discussions with my fellow discontents but I don't speak for her.
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RE: Make Atheist Forums Great Again (Part 1)
No, it's not CL. She hasn't really gone anywhere.

I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore. I've said I don't think you have a leg to stand on, and I stand by that. Be part of the solution or continue to be part of the problem/blame it all on me. I don't care. I'm too busy actually trying to do something. Again, good day.
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RE: Make Atheist Forums Great Again (Part 1)
I must confess that I thought I might have been a little over the line in a recent in-person discussion when I referred to more centrist Democrats as, "Neville Chamberlain Democrats." But it does point up a couple of things. First, you don't need harsh language to be aggressive and insulting. But probably more importantly, this isn't an in-person discussion. If you're looking for that then perhaps you should seek in-person discussions and avoid the internet altogether. In-person discussions serve very different goals, interests, and needs. Trying to impose the standards of some other social activity upon the forum is in some cases simply a stealth way of attacking something you have reasons to oppose that aren't actually the reason you are giving. That would be dishonest, and I don't sympathize with that. It might be desirable for online discussions to avoid some things that are avoided in in-person discussions, but for very different reasons than those for which they are avoided in in-person discussions. I'm not going to go into an exploration of all the reasons people avoid such in in-person engagements, but few of them are relevant here in the same way they are relevant there, and even there, there are exceptions (e.g. protest, political activism, street corner advocacy, etc.).
[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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RE: Make Atheist Forums Great Again (Part 1)
(December 12, 2018 at 1:13 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(December 12, 2018 at 12:52 pm)Whateverist Wrote: My slur?  You'll have to point me to the one you mean.  I know I've left many in plenty of posts but I'm not sure which one you have in mind.

(December 12, 2018 at 11:45 am)Whateverist Wrote: What I'm picking up on very clearly is that there is still a strong vibe that the forum as a whole ... hold derision and name calling very near and dear.  I don't give a damn about debate, discussion is what I go to forums for and it is pretty tough to carry on when so many are chomping at the bit to toss the shit.  I have no trouble with any choice of vocabulary and I can also be provoked to name calling ... is never something I aim for or celebrate.

Those are both broad generalizations about a large class of people without anything really backing them up.  As already stated, I think you're simply wrong.  And this disingenuous bit about how what you said may or may not have been a slur is straining at gnats to avoid any discussion of the actual point I was making.


Well obviously if I don't think the entire mod team has that vibe I sure don't think the entire forum does.  I didn't mean the forum as whole in the sense of "without exception", and I certainly don't mean you.  I just mean there is a loud and conspicuous portion of the forum giving rise to that vibe, and there is very little if any push back from the site's leaders against it.  I think the reason they don't is that "freedom of speech" is put on too a high a pedestal here.  There isn't even a culture of regret toward some unavoidable but toxic forms of speech.

You have your surly moments but you've always been very much worth it because you're so smart and insightful.  You are also versatile enough to go civil when you want as you showed during the brief, wondrous life of that sub-forum Tibs started.  Besides you've just become more open and at times vulnerable over the years making pushing you even higher in my regard.  You still have and probably will always have a tendency to lash out when someone hits a nerve - as Shell does and as I do as well.  But that isn't what I'm complaining about.

(December 12, 2018 at 1:33 pm)Shell B Wrote: No, it's not CL. She hasn't really gone anywhere.

I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore. I've said I don't think you have a leg to stand on, and I stand by that. Be part of the solution or continue to be part of the problem/blame it all on me. I don't care. I'm too busy actually trying to do something. Again, good day.


That's fine.  I have nothing more to say to you about it anyhow.  Thanks for what you all are trying to do but I remain on the fence.  

If it is any consolation to anyone still reading my posts I don't think AD is entirely free of the kind of participation I object to.  But like this place, they are working on it.

Good day, madam.
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RE: Make Atheist Forums Great Again (Part 1)
(December 12, 2018 at 1:28 pm)Whateverist Wrote: I do feel I've gotten to know you fairly well.  I find you interesting, like you well enough and don't feel any less warm toward you.  But I am and have expressed criticism of the way you carry yourself as a mod.

As for having a discussion elsewhere with others about what goes on here, I don't see anything wrong with that.  Do you?  Don't you hang out in slack with your own cadre talking about whatever you like?  I see no difference. 

It does come down to tastes in the end.  For me I'm more interested in having the kinds of conversations I can have with people in person, where I rarely feel the need to be insulting.  When people are disingenuous or don't really try to understand my point of view then screw them.  But I get no satisfaction from flaming them and when I'm provoked to, I find it far from satisfying.  So to me, a discussion about freedom of speech should not revolve around the ability to insult one another.  At best, I think it is something we should put up with as inevitable but unfortunate.

I assume the person who is missing and missed is Catholic_Lady.  She has been part of my nefarious discussions with my fellow discontents but I don't speak for her.

Why are you here? I thought you dismissed yourself a few days ago. You didn't want to have anything about this forum but now you do? I guess you weren't so tight when you went to speak behind others backs.

It's all good right?
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RE: Make Atheist Forums Great Again (Part 1)
To play devil's advocate slightly, I don't think people should be held to their words which were written after a heated discussion. Moreover, I don't think internet forums should have a concept of loyalty. It's perfectly acceptable to be a member of multiple forums. Many members here are.

I went to AD to confront some misinformation but also to encourage discussion back at AF. I know at least one person came back to make suggestions. If people come back to AF from AD after this, that's great. If they remain members of both forums, that's great too. If they just want to stay at AD, well I'll certainly miss some of them more than others but that's also their decision.

This thread is about feedback. Negative feedback is fine. We're not all going to agree on things. My hope is that people will stick around long enough to see all the changes and make an educated opinion then on whether they think the community is one they want to stay in.
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RE: Make Atheist Forums Great Again (Part 1)
(December 12, 2018 at 2:47 pm)Tiberius Wrote: To play devil's advocate slightly, I don't think people should be held to their words which were written after a heated discussion. Moreover, I don't think internet forums should have a concept of loyalty. It's perfectly acceptable to be a member of multiple forums. Many members here are.

I went to AD to confront some misinformation but also to encourage discussion back at AF. I know at least one person came back to make suggestions. If people come back to AF from AD after this, that's great. If they remain members of both forums, that's great too. If they just want to stay at AD, well I'll certainly miss some of them more than others but that's also their decision.

This thread is about feedback. Negative feedback is fine. We're not all going to agree on things. My hope is that people will stick around long enough to see all the changes and make an educated opinion then on whether they think the community is one they want to stay in.

It is all well and good. People can say whatever they want and afraid of hearing what they do not want, like behing their back. It is a thing. And people should be held for their words, unless they find a way to overcome such pride of admitting to be wrong. dead wrong.

And you are right, this is about the new rule and discussing thread titles. Let's not veer out of that.
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