why do we enjoy poetry From the perspective of neuroscience?

[The Grand Nudger]

This is a big problem for materialists, I think. Because the idea itself (or the perceived sensation, or the mind-only speech act, or whatever) does have real existence, but it is not identical with the electrochemical brain event. So what kind of existence it has is difficult to define. 

More an assertion on your part than a problem for materialists, Bel. Meanwhile, neuroscience is happily and productively plugging along on -exactly- the notion that ideas are electro-chemical brain events.

[zainab]

yeah they are objects, from this point of view: perceining
But do they have a realistic existence?

I think we have to say they have realistic existence. 

Consider the alternative: suppose you say "I had an idea." And somebody who thinks that ideas don't have existence would say, "No, you didn't." But if you can describe the idea and convey it to others, then the objection that it was just an illusion and didn't exist is silly. 

This is a big problem for materialists, I think. Because the idea itself (or the perceived sensation, or the mind-only speech act, or whatever) does have real existence, but it is not identical with the electrochemical brain event. So what kind of existence it has is difficult to define. 

Sorry if I could not be clear.. this is my first experience to communicate in English 

OMT !!!!!

Is there a Third kind of Existence?

[Alan V]

How do we enjoy prose, poetry or any kind of literary arts?
From the perspective of neuroscience?
What is the deep origin of tasting metaphor?

I think you have to take poetry in context.  We humans enjoy exercising all of our many skills, the writing and reading of word- and meaning-games among them.  I would guess this desire to excel at all things has been very useful evolutionarily, even when its specific results aren't necessarily useful in every situation.  We are still exercising our abilities regardless.

As for the question of how charged meat cells in certain arrangements hold meanings, I would assume it's the same way arrangements of black marks on papers hold meanings.  Just as with books and language, our brains have their own language which we constantly interpret with yet other parts of our brains, since we have the capacity to impute meanings to abstractions.  Even if we don't know how the brain-language was written, we can still apply it.

I'm not sure neuroscience is useful in understanding such things beyond a point, however.  That seems like applying a hammer where you need a sizing gauge.

[Belacqua]

Is there a Third kind of Existence?

At this point I don't think anybody can say. 

Currently there are no scientific theories as to how brain cell activity can present to a self as a phenomenal experience. Some people (e.g. Noam Chomsky) think that there are just limits to what people can understand, and this may be one of those limits. As you point out elsewhere, we evolved for survival, not understanding, and there is no reason to think that everything in the world will be understandable to us. 

It's also possible that science will undergo another paradigm shift, of the type that Descartes and Isaac Newton brought about before, and new ways of thinking will allow a unification of currently unexplainable unreconcilable phenomena. Ideas like panpsychism attempt to unify matter with thought, but this is speculative.


So far it's a mystery, and there are not even suggestions as to how to start solving it in a testable scientific way.

[Angrboda]

WOW! Do you mean that science not even close to solve this?

This is a big topic, and people disagree. I've had people get angry at me when I say "we don't know." 

It's obvious, people have mental experiences. We think about abstract concepts, we feel strongly about different ideas, etc. 

It's also clear that in every case we know of, these experiences are related to electrochemical events in the brain. 

What's not clear is why the activation of certain meat-cells in the brain should give rise to things which are very much different from electrochemical events -- that is, abstract concepts, etc. As far as I can tell, nobody has any idea of why this happens. If you look at somebody else's brain, you can see that reciting a poem from memory activates a certain area of the brain. But you can't see the words being formed, you only see the activation of the cells. But how does a "self" get the experience of ideas as a result of this cellular activity? Nobody knows. 

(And despite what some people claim, fMRI studies are far from conclusive. MRI machines don't detect thoughts; they detect, for the most part, water and fat based on the abundance of hydrogen in a given area. Apparently when a given area of the brain is active, blood flow to the area increases shortly thereafter. So what we get a record of is the physical follow-on of cell activity. And of course each voxel in the MRI contains thousands and thousands of cells, so the whole thing is still pretty fuzzy.) 

We can make educated guesses about origins, obviously. Certain mental experiences help us survive, so evolution was likely to select for them. But the actual mechanism is a mystery. 

Here's an introduction to the problem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_probl...sciousness

Poetry is wonderful because, at its best, it pushes language to the limits of what it can do. It invokes more or less endless associations of meaning, etymology, references to other literature and ideas, etc. It uses sound patterns, meaning patterns, sometimes visual patterns if it's written down. The idea that any given snapshot of brain activity could tell us something useful about poetry is just nonsense -- at least given the state of science as it is now.

With all due respect, the problem of consciousness and what neuroscience can say about the brain's reaction to poetry are two very different things. You're just changing the subject because you like being a contrarian twat.

[Brian37]

I say any art, music, painting, poetry, whatever, is something that is varying, is rooted in our evolution's drive to seek patterns. Our escapism, is a result of of trying to find comfort in escapism.  When we perceive something as pleasing to our senses, that feeling of comfort can have a very real effect on our immune system. 

Sports too, is really our species simulation at attempts to gain resources. "Points" are metaphor for resources, and a score can literally cause positive chemical reactions in the player's brain.

Even with my poetry. People either like it or they do not. But, I can say after I finish one I think is really good, I do get a positive feeling which really are electro chemical reactions in my brain.

[Alan V]

Currently there are no scientific theories as to how brain cell activity can present to a self as a phenomenal experience.

I don't understand the above statement.

We perceive ourselves as selves because we are selves. We humans are discrete living organisms. We have all sorts of internal sensory information and subjective emotions and thoughts around which we construct our ideas of ourselves as specific discrete living organisms. Where is the problem?

[brewer]

Currently there are no scientific theories as to how brain cell activity can present to a self as a phenomenal experience.

I don't understand the above statement.

We perceive ourselves as selves because we are selves.  We humans are discrete living organisms.  We have all sorts of internal sensory information and subjective emotions and thoughts around which we construct our ideas of ourselves as specific discrete living organisms.  Where is the problem?

I agree. There are all kinds of theories Bel. Google your statement.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

The simple acts of reading or hearing poetry causes the frostitrons in the shellybral chaucertex to flood the brain with emmersonophins, which in turn stimulates the spencerelle centres, causing a general feeling of happiness.

Glad I could help.

Boru

[brewer]

The simple acts of reading or hearing poetry causes the frostitrons in the shellybral chaucertex to flood the brain with emmersonophins, which in turn stimulates the spencerelle centres, causing a general feeling of happiness.

Glad I could help.

Boru

The extra dose of lithium I took is disabling my ability to understand you.