Illegal Immigration

[Brian37]

Despite all that has been said, the question remains "should we control immigration into the US"?  If so, we need to have effective laws, systems and enforcement.  Our current system is obviously ineffective.  It's not California's job to enforce the borders, but it also neglecting the well-being of it's citizens by protecting known criminals simply because they are undocumented immigrants, especially when they don't do the same for documented immigrants and citizens.  In many cases, if the Feds are after a known criminal who is a citizen, California will co-operate, but if the criminal is undocumented they will not.  Sanctuary cities do not protect criminal citizens - only undocumented criminals.  Whatever the crime rate is for immigrants, we need to know who is crossing our borders folks.

Yes and no.

Order is what all humans seek 

Yes we should control immigration but NOT in the inhumane fear mongering xenophobic bigoted way the orange turd sells.

If someone gets in here without papers, the worst thing we can do is scare the shit out of them to the point they don't have a job, and worse, don't report crime because they are afraid of getting deported.

Again, I have had Hispanic neighbors living on both sides of me for the past 10 years, I don't know their status, nor have I asked, nor do I care. I do know they have been nothing but kind to me, and have kids, and have never been violent. Why would I want to kick non violent innocent people out of my neighborhood?

In my 52 years of life, I have run into far more violent people whom live here and have legal status. 

Nationality and race do not determine if the individual will get violent. However, bad economics will lead to more unrest and crime, but that is the same worldwide.

[LadyForCamus]

Despite all that has been said, the question remains "should we control immigration into the US"?  If so, we need to have effective laws, systems and enforcement.  Our current system is obviously ineffective.  It's not California's job to enforce the borders, but it also neglecting the well-being of it's citizens by protecting known criminals simply because they are undocumented immigrants, especially when they don't do the same for documented immigrants and citizens.  In many cases, if the Feds are after a known criminal who is a citizen, California will co-operate, but if the criminal is undocumented they will not.  Sanctuary cities do not protect criminal citizens - only undocumented criminals.  Whatever the crime rate is for immigrants, we need to know who is crossing our borders folks.

'A 2017 review study of the existing literature noted that the existing studies had found that sanctuary cities either have no impact on crime or that they lower the crime rate.[5] A second 2017 study in the journal Urban Affairs Review found that sanctuary policy itself has no statistically meaningful effect on crime.[64][3][65][66][67] The findings of the study were misinterpreted by Attorney General Jeff Sessions in a July 2017 speech when he claimed that the study showed that sanctuary cities were more prone to crime than cities without sanctuary policies.[68][69] A third study in the journal Justice Quarterly found evidence that the adoption of sanctuary policies reduced the robbery rate but had no impact on the homicide rate except in cities with larger Mexican undocumented immigrant populations which had lower rates of homicide.[70]

According to a study by Tom K. Wong, associate professor of political science at the University of California, San Diego, published by the Center for American Progress, a progressive think tank: "Crime is statistically significantly lower in sanctuary counties compared to nonsanctuary counties. Moreover, economies are stronger in sanctuary counties – from higher median household income, less poverty, and less reliance on public assistance to higher labor force participation, higher employment-to-population ratios, and lower unemployment."[4] The study also concluded that sanctuary cities build trust between local law enforcement and the community, which enhances public safety overall.[71] The study evaluated sanctuary and non-sanctuary cities while controlling for differences in population, the foreign-born percentage of the population, and the percentage of the population that is Latino."[4]'

This bit kind of stands out:

'A third study in the journal Justice Quarterly found evidence that the adoption of sanctuary policies reduced the robbery rate but had no impact on the homicide rate except in cities with larger Mexican undocumented immigrant populations which had lower rates of homicide.'

Overall, it would seem that being in a sanctuary city reduces your chances of being the victim of a crime.

Boru

Again, with those annoying ‘fact’ thingies.

[Jane2d]

Undocumented immigrants are less likely to commit crime than native-born citizens.

Another thing the anti-immigration in the US conveniently fail to mention is that EVERY immigrant group to the US has brought along its own criminal element.  But - apparently - Central American immigration is going to bring in a group of evil-doers that are going to reduce the US to smoking rubble.

The topic isnt criminals; us vs them.  The topic is "sanctuary state" and illegal immigrants.

There is a difference between being "anti-immigration" and thinking ALL immigrants regardless of origin should follow the same rules.

And before anyone takes exception to this post, you should all be aware that I have seen every episode of 'The Sopranos' as well as both 'Godfather' films, which qualifies me as an expert on organized crime.

IIRC your a kiwi --- So feel free to petition your government to reduce the obsticles Latinos face immigrating to New Zealand.

Side note:  Cute how "I got me two immigrant families on either side of me and I aint had no problem" comes up. "Dunno if they are illegals" (but figure I should include them...)   Deflection away from the actual topic or symptoms of ADHD...? Just asking.

I've bought weed from illlegals as a juvie.  20 years later I worked with one of them.  He didnt get in under the Reagan amnesty because of his weed busts. Had a nice 'remember when' chat with him.  I know the place we worked at got raided a year or so after I moved on... so it is likely he got tossed once again.

Turned down meth from another illegal I worked with unrelated to the above and I was a grown up by then.  I dont do meth.  Few years later he got his ass busted with 2 lbs (saw it on the news).  Too bad, he was actually a nice guy and a good worker.  Still... I fucking hate meth but didnt roll him over. He got busted on his own.

Former renters step-daughters boyfriend was killed by an illegal.  Meth again; money owed.   He was just grateful his step-daughter was not murdered also.  She wasnt there when it happened.

Know anyone whos ss# is being used by someone to work illegally?  I do.  The Fuckin hoops shes having to jump through for the IRS are driving her crazy.  OH but that aint a violent crime, so the lefties dont think it matters.  Its a goddamn nightmare when it happens.

Papers on illegal crime waves

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?...id=3099992

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/il...ommission/

Point being everyone can come up with personal stories/papers pro/con.    

There is NOTHING wrong with a country and its citizens requiring migrants to follow the rules or be rejected/Disqualified/Tossed out of the game for Unsportsmanlike conduct.  And this is the fuckin theme over and over IF you actually talk to the illegals themselves and ask them why they didnt do it the legal way.  They dont even try to do it right... It Costs too much or it TAKES too long or they (gov) might tell me NO.  These are the reasons illegals dont do it legally.  But there are thousands of Latinos who DO immigrate every fuckin year waiting in line like they are supposed to, or getting their work visas etc. just like they are supposed to.  And every one of those illegals devalues the effort and ethics of the legal immigrants.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

The topic isnt criminals; us vs them.  The topic is "sanctuary state" and illegal immigrants.

I wasn't the one who introduced the subject of criminality by undocumented immigrants.

There is a difference between being "anti-immigration" and thinking ALL immigrants regardless of origin should follow the same rules.

If you've got so many potential immigrants trying to evade the rules, maybe the rules need changing.

IIRC your a kiwi --- So feel free to petition your government to reduce the obsticles Latinos face immigrating to New Zealand.

EVERYONE faces obsticles [sic] trying to immigrate to New Zealand.  But, FWIW, I have signed petitions supporting removing the age restriction on new immigrants.

Side note:  Cute how "I got me two immigrant families on either side of me and I aint had no problem" comes up. "Dunno if they are illegals" (but figure I should include them...)   Deflection away from the actual topic or symptoms of ADHD...? Just asking.

That wasn't me - I'M the immigrant.

I've bought weed from illlegals as a juvie.  20 years later I worked with one of them.  He didnt get in under the Reagan amnesty because of his weed busts. Had a nice 'remember when' chat with him.  I know the place we worked at got raided a year or so after I moved on... so it is likely he got tossed once again.

Turned down meth from another illegal I worked with unrelated to the above and I was a grown up by then.  I dont do meth.  Few years later he got his ass busted with 2 lbs (saw it on the news).  Too bad, he was actually a nice guy and a good worker.  Still... I fucking hate meth but didnt roll him over. He got busted on his own.

Former renters step-daughters boyfriend was killed by an illegal.  Meth again; money owed.   He was just grateful his step-daughter was not murdered also.  She wasnt there when it happened.

Has it occurred to you that drugs, as opposed to immigration, might be the real issue there?

Know anyone whos ss# is being used by someone to work illegally?  I do.  The Fuckin hoops shes having to jump through for the IRS are driving her crazy.  OH but that aint a violent crime, so the lefties dont think it matters.  Its a goddamn nightmare when it happens.

Not as such, no. But I've been a citizen of three different countries, and I've know native-borns who work illegally and commit all manner of criminal offenses.  You seem to be more concerned with crimes committed by undocumented immigrants than by natives.  Why is that, I wonder?

Papers on illegal crime waves

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?...id=3099992

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/il...ommission/

Informed people do not take John Lott seriously.  I don't know anything about Peter Kirsanow and (quite frankly) can't be arsed to look him up.

Point being everyone can come up with personal stories/papers pro/con.    

True enough.

There is NOTHING wrong with a country and its citizens requiring migrants to follow the rules or be rejected/Disqualified/Tossed out of the game for Unsportsmanlike conduct.  And this is the fuckin theme over and over IF you actually talk to the illegals themselves and ask them why they didnt do it the legal way.  They dont even try to do it right... It Costs too much or it TAKES too long or they (gov) might tell me NO.  These are the reasons illegals dont do it legally.  But there are thousands of Latinos who DO immigrate every fuckin year waiting in line like they are supposed to, or getting their work visas etc. just like they are supposed to.  And every one of those illegals devalues the effort and ethics of the legal immigrants.

Then again, maybe people entering the US illegally would be less likely to do so if the US lived up to its legal obligations on how to treat immigrants and asylum seekers.

Boru

[Amarok]

The topic isnt criminals; us vs them.  The topic is "sanctuary state" and illegal immigrants.

I wasn't the one who introduced the subject of criminality by undocumented immigrants.

There is a difference between being "anti-immigration" and thinking ALL immigrants regardless of origin should follow the same rules.

If you've got so many potential immigrants trying to evade the rules, maybe the rules need changing.

IIRC your a kiwi --- So feel free to petition your government to reduce the obsticles Latinos face immigrating to New Zealand.

EVERYONE faces obsticles [sic] trying to immigrate to New Zealand.  But, FWIW, I have signed petitions supporting removing the age restriction on new immigrants.

Side note:  Cute how "I got me two immigrant families on either side of me and I aint had no problem" comes up. "Dunno if they are illegals" (but figure I should include them...)   Deflection away from the actual topic or symptoms of ADHD...? Just asking.

That wasn't me - I'M the immigrant.

I've bought weed from illlegals as a juvie.  20 years later I worked with one of them.  He didnt get in under the Reagan amnesty because of his weed busts. Had a nice 'remember when' chat with him.  I know the place we worked at got raided a year or so after I moved on... so it is likely he got tossed once again.

Turned down meth from another illegal I worked with unrelated to the above and I was a grown up by then.  I dont do meth.  Few years later he got his ass busted with 2 lbs (saw it on the news).  Too bad, he was actually a nice guy and a good worker.  Still... I fucking hate meth but didnt roll him over. He got busted on his own.

Former renters step-daughters boyfriend was killed by an illegal.  Meth again; money owed.   He was just grateful his step-daughter was not murdered also.  She wasnt there when it happened.

Has it occurred to you that drugs, as opposed to immigration, might be the real issue there?

Know anyone whos ss# is being used by someone to work illegally?  I do.  The Fuckin hoops shes having to jump through for the IRS are driving her crazy.  OH but that aint a violent crime, so the lefties dont think it matters.  Its a goddamn nightmare when it happens.

Not as such, no. But I've been a citizen of three different countries, and I've know native-borns who work illegally and commit all manner of criminal offenses.  You seem to be more concerned with crimes committed by undocumented immigrants than by natives.  Why is that, I wonder?

Papers on illegal crime waves

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?...id=3099992

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/il...ommission/

Informed people do not take John Lott seriously.  I don't know anything about Peter Kirsanow and (quite frankly) can't be arsed to look him up.

Point being everyone can come up with personal stories/papers pro/con.    

True enough.

There is NOTHING wrong with a country and its citizens requiring migrants to follow the rules or be rejected/Disqualified/Tossed out of the game for Unsportsmanlike conduct.  And this is the fuckin theme over and over IF you actually talk to the illegals themselves and ask them why they didnt do it the legal way.  They dont even try to do it right... It Costs too much or it TAKES too long or they (gov) might tell me NO.  These are the reasons illegals dont do it legally.  But there are thousands of Latinos who DO immigrate every fuckin year waiting in line like they are supposed to, or getting their work visas etc. just like they are supposed to.  And every one of those illegals devalues the effort and ethics of the legal immigrants.

Then again, maybe people entering the US illegally would be less likely to do so if the US lived up to its legal obligations on how to treat immigrants and asylum seekers.

Boru

This is persistent argument with him essentially saying we can't criticize American policy because were not American . And why does he think drugs are such an issue ....Oh yeah because Americans are buying them .

---

An resorting to John Lott 

https://www.cato.org/blog/fatal-flaw-joh...me-arizona

https://www.cato.org/blog/responding-joh...riminality
It's a sad day when the Cato institute can own you

[bennyboy]

Laws are laws. Anyone who comes in a spirit of law-breaking shouldn't expect to be welcomed into the society.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

This is persistent argument with him essentially saying we can't criticize American policy because were not American .

What a remarkably stupid argument.  I suppose I was wrong to take to the streets in protest of the UK government cozying up to South Africa during apartheid.  Maybe I have no right to (in a small way) help people dealing with crushing poverty.  Maybe my stance on the Rwandan and Rohingya genocides is misplaced.  Maybe I'm just a big old stupid head for thinking the Israelis shouldn't respond to rock-throwers with gunfire.

I guess I'm just one of those garden variety bleeding heart liberal snowflakes.  Lucky me. 

Boru

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Laws are laws.  Anyone who comes in a spirit of law-breaking shouldn't expect to be welcomed into the society.

Which laws are being broken?

Boru

[onlinebiker]

Laws are laws.  Anyone who comes in a spirit of law-breaking shouldn't expect to be welcomed into the society.

Which laws are being broken?

Boru

I expect he' s referring to those that choose to try and circumnavigate the legal entry points - and legal entry, in favor of a stroll through the desert under cover of darkness.

[Dmitry1983]

 Maybe I'm just a big old stupid head for thinking the Israelis shouldn't respond to rock-throwers with gunfire.

You are