Aborting Baby Hitler...

[Yonadav]

Not another topic about Hitler! There have been many genocides but I guess Hitler's is the most popularized.

I mean take 19th century where some 10 to 20 million innocent people were killed by Christian overlords in Congo Free State. British consul Roger Casement was sent to Africa to investigate its progress in 1904. and discovered enslavement of natives, cold-blooded killings, mutilations, hangings, and atrocious collateral death by poor conditions and lack of health care, leading to the arrest of European officials who had perpetrated the despicable acts.

The atrocities were rationalized by “Manifest Destiny“ dogmas and politics —Divine Providence which justifies annexation of lands held by "inferior" races or "heathens," and the Christian Bible approval of slavery.

Or the Armenian genocide. Hitler was partly inspired by the Armenian genocide, saying that 'no one remembers the Armenian genocide".  Memory is short and people tend to forget about genocides soon after they happen.

Regardless, this is a discussion about Hitler. It is not a discussion about genocide specifically, and it is not a discussion about the Armenian genocide, and it is not a discussion about the British genocide in the Congo. It is a discussion about Hitler, and you don't have to participate in it.

I'm certain that no one will object to you starting a thread about other genocides.

Hitler probably stands out for several reasons. His campaign of genocide was far more methodical, thought out, and organized than most genocides which tend to be the product of escalation, emotion, and poor oversight. His nearly successful genocide unquestionably made the allies the good guys in the deadliest war the world has ever known. And it made us take a hard look at ourselves, since Hitler's genocide took place in a civilized western nation, and was based in ideologies that were popular with us-- such as manifest destiny. Hell, we would probably still think that manifest destiny is a good thing if it hadn't been for Hitler. And we probably wouldn't have such a negative reaction to white supremacy if it hadn't been for Hitler. White supremacists would probably just be a political bloc in our culture, rather than being derided as a bunch of fucking Nazis. Hitler reminds us of where that white nationalism shit leads to.

[Divinity]

The stupidest fucking thing about this is:

"Would YOU" is a stupid way to put anything regarding the situation of abortion.  "Would YOU abort baby hitler?"  "Would YOU abort baby einstein?"  

First, for the men--you'll never fucking get in this situation no matter what you do.  You don't get pregnant.  So you'll never have to make the decision to abort baby einstein or baby hitler or baby donald trump or baby guy down the street who looks at you creepy.  Stop pretending you'll ever be in that situation.  Because you won't.

Second, what YOU would do is FUCKING IRRELEVANT.  Man or woman.  YOUR choice is YOUR choice and YOUR choice alone.  See the word YOUR there?  Yeah, I capitalized it three fucking times to make my fucking point.  Only YOU can make the decision for YOURSELF.  You don't get to fucking make the decision for other people.  

Third, no woman gets an abortion and thinks "What if they're HItler?"  Nobody.  Not one.  Women get abortions for a plethora of reasons, but that ain't one of them.  It's not about the fucking potential.  Not one bit.  So stop trying to make it about that.

Finally, if Baby Hitler were Baby Jose instead... you can bet these FUCKERS would be glad to cage him if he were born to an undocumented immigrant.  So it's kind of fucking insulting for anyone to say "I wouldnt' kill baby hitler!"  when they're perfectly okay with caging and starving actual children who have actual potential instead of some hypoethetical dictator.

[Fake Messiah]

Yeah instead of killing babies better close religious schools like in which Karen Pence teaches. Religion is to school what vodka is to driving: bound to manifest a fuck ton of ugliness. These schools are incubators for Christian extremists, hopping malleable minds up on willful, sadistic ignorance. Malignant idiocy in the name of a corpse on a stick.

[Brian37]

Abortion should always remain the right of the female alone. Life is a crap shoot, and for every sperm that ends making it to the egg, there are millions more that don't. And for all the pregnancies that end up in adulthood, there are plenty of monsters that are produced in humanity. The key to a stable and free society isn't outlawing abortion, but good economic policies It does no good to bring a child into the world if they are abused or raised in poverty.

Most of the monsters we think of in human history were abused as children. Hitller's dad and Stalin's dad were authoritarians and that mental abuse alone can cause someone to grow up to abuse, and it is worse when that abusive person gets a high level of power.

[Yonadav]

Abortion should always remain the right of the female alone. Life is a crap shoot, and for every sperm that ends making it to the egg, there are millions more that don't. And for all the pregnancies that end up in adulthood, there are plenty of monsters that are produced in humanity. The key to a stable and free society isn't outlawing abortion, but good economic policies It does no good to bring a child into the world if they are abused or raised in poverty.

Most of the monsters we think of in human history were abused as children. Hitller's dad and Stalin's dad were authoritarians and that mental abuse alone can cause someone to grow up to abuse, and it is worse when that abusive person gets a high level of power.

Personally, I have never been convinced that there is any such thing as reproductive rights.  Just because you can have a baby doesn't mean that you have a right to have a baby.  A lot of people say that the right to have a baby follows from the ability to have a baby. I disagree. I don't think that it follows. The right to do a thing never follows from the ability to do a thing, except for apparently in this one matter. That's a bit odd.

[Amarok]

Shapiro's answers way too simplistic (a theme with him ) all depends if nature or nurture are our driving force . I also point out that just because alternate Hitler doesn't try and exterminate the Jews doesn't mean he becomes a good person . It may be the fact he becomes evil anyway and for all we know does something even worst . You can't take complex interactions like this and definitively one way or the other .

[Brian37]

Abortion should always remain the right of the female alone. Life is a crap shoot, and for every sperm that ends making it to the egg, there are millions more that don't. And for all the pregnancies that end up in adulthood, there are plenty of monsters that are produced in humanity. The key to a stable and free society isn't outlawing abortion, but good economic policies It does no good to bring a child into the world if they are abused or raised in poverty.

Most of the monsters we think of in human history were abused as children. Hitller's dad and Stalin's dad were authoritarians and that mental abuse alone can cause someone to grow up to abuse, and it is worse when that abusive person gets a high level of power.

Personally, I have never been convinced that there is any such thing as reproductive rights.  Just because you can have a baby doesn't mean that you have a right to have a baby.  A lot of people say that the right to have a baby follows from the ability to have a baby. I disagree. I don't think that it follows. The right to do a thing never follows from the ability to do a thing, except for apparently in this one matter. That's a bit odd.

Good thing in a free society you don't get to decide for everyone else what our laws are. Places where only one sect of society controls everything are closed authoritarian states. Go live in one, say North Korea or Iran or Saudi Arabia then come back here and complain about other's lives you have no say in.

Nobody is saying it is a child's fault what class or economic status they are born into. It is is simply better to address economics and education than to make abortion a social issue when it is a personal choice.

[Amarok]

Abortion should always remain the right of the female alone. Life is a crap shoot, and for every sperm that ends making it to the egg, there are millions more that don't. And for all the pregnancies that end up in adulthood, there are plenty of monsters that are produced in humanity. The key to a stable and free society isn't outlawing abortion, but good economic policies It does no good to bring a child into the world if they are abused or raised in poverty.

Most of the monsters we think of in human history were abused as children. Hitller's dad and Stalin's dad were authoritarians and that mental abuse alone can cause someone to grow up to abuse, and it is worse when that abusive person gets a high level of power.

Personally, I have never been convinced that there is any such thing as reproductive rights.  Just because you can have a baby doesn't mean that you have a right to have a baby.  A lot of people say that the right to have a baby follows from the ability to have a baby. I disagree. I don't think that it follows. The right to do a thing never follows from the ability to do a thing, except for apparently in this one matter. That's a bit odd.

Birth is a exception I'm sorry . A woman must have total sovereignty over her body otherwise it's forced reproduction.

[Brian37]

Personally, I have never been convinced that there is any such thing as reproductive rights.  Just because you can have a baby doesn't mean that you have a right to have a baby.  A lot of people say that the right to have a baby follows from the ability to have a baby. I disagree. I don't think that it follows. The right to do a thing never follows from the ability to do a thing, except for apparently in this one matter. That's a bit odd.

Birth is a exception I'm sorry . A woman must have total sovereignty over her body otherwise it's forced reproduction.

BINGO!

The part about the pro birther's which is what they really are, because they don't want to do shit for the child after it is born. 

They act like pro choice people go door to door and say, knock the kid up, knock the women up, then have an abortion so we can gloat and throw a keg party. Which is not the case. Pro choice is about education, female empowerment, female economics, female health, and family planing. Outlawing abortion will not end abortion, it will simply send desperate people back into allies with coat hangers. 

And the other thing I never get a rational response for is how should the female be punished? The pro birthers never want to punish the female, but only the provider. If two people plan a bank robbery and the teller gets murdered both are charged equally no matter who pulled the trigger on the gun.

[Yonadav]

Personally, I have never been convinced that there is any such thing as reproductive rights.  Just because you can have a baby doesn't mean that you have a right to have a baby.  A lot of people say that the right to have a baby follows from the ability to have a baby. I disagree. I don't think that it follows. The right to do a thing never follows from the ability to do a thing, except for apparently in this one matter. That's a bit odd.

Good thing in a free society you don't get to decide for everyone else what our laws are. Places where only one sect of society controls everything are closed authoritarian states. Go live in one, say North Korea or Iran or Saudi Arabia then come back here and complain about other's lives you have no say in.

Nobody is saying it is a child's fault what class or economic status they are born into. It is is simply better to address economics and education than to make abortion a social issue when it is a personal choice.

I didn't say that I get to decide what the law is for everyone else.  I just said that I don't think that 'reproductive rights' is a real thing. I think that it is a term that confuses the issue. It is difficult to have an honest discussion about reproductive rights and responsibilities because so many people are expressing their worldview as if their worldview is the law, and a lot of wonky logic is being applied that doesn't work on any other issue.