Aborting Baby Hitler...

[Rev. Rye]

Abortion should always remain the right of the female alone. Life is a crap shoot, and for every sperm that ends making it to the egg, there are millions more that don't. And for all the pregnancies that end up in adulthood, there are plenty of monsters that are produced in humanity. The key to a stable and free society isn't outlawing abortion, but good economic policies It does no good to bring a child into the world if they are abused or raised in poverty.

Most of the monsters we think of in human history were abused as children. Hitller's dad and Stalin's dad were authoritarians and that mental abuse alone can cause someone to grow up to abuse, and it is worse when that abusive person gets a high level of power.

And, naturally, there's the problem of micro-nurture (the Hitler family's shitty lives, the stuff parents can actually theoretically control), and macro-nurture (the extremely anti-semitic culture of the area, the poorly-run nature of the Weimar Republic, and all the other shit I talked about earlier in the thread that people couldn't.)

[Brian37]

A long time ago, I did get stumped by a pro lifer, a teen on top of that. I was at a breakfast with my mom and her friends and their kids. The subject  came up and she faked a gun to my head with her finger, and said, "There I just aborted you". Stupid fucking argument.. She followed it up with, "Well aren't you glad you are here?" I didn't know what I do now, and did not have access to the internet, because it didn't exist back then, and I have to admit, it shut me up for the moment, because she was right, I was happy I was alive.

But, just like when bullies tease you in school, guys like me don't have a quick comeback. Not saying she was bullying me. Just in that I am the type of person it takes time to think about, and far too often with humans in a non structured debate, they take silence as a win if you don't respond. But it stuck with me, but after thinking it about it I could have come back with what I accept now, "I cant argue something that didn't happen."  So while I am glad I am 52 and still kicking, even without abortion, a turn here,  twist there, a faster sperm than me, someone else would have been born instead of me.

Humans really hate the idea that we are not an apex species, but merely a species with different attributes. We don't want to see ourselves as just as subject to the countless variables that lead to both life and death that all other life faces.

[Amarok]

didn't say that I get to decide what the law is for everyone else.  I just said that I don't think that 'reproductive rights' is a real thing. I think that it is a term that confuses the issue. It is difficult to have an honest discussion about reproductive rights and responsibilities because so many people are expressing their worldview as if their worldview is the law, and a lot of wonky logic is being applied that doesn't work on any other issue.

The only alternative is a loss of bodily sovereignty and forced reproduction . Either a woman gets to decide what goes on in her own body and what can live in it or sovereignty is lost and others get to decide and then were does it end .

[Yonadav]

Abortion should always remain the right of the female alone. Life is a crap shoot, and for every sperm that ends making it to the egg, there are millions more that don't. And for all the pregnancies that end up in adulthood, there are plenty of monsters that are produced in humanity. The key to a stable and free society isn't outlawing abortion, but good economic policies It does no good to bring a child into the world if they are abused or raised in poverty.

Most of the monsters we think of in human history were abused as children. Hitller's dad and Stalin's dad were authoritarians and that mental abuse alone can cause someone to grow up to abuse, and it is worse when that abusive person gets a high level of power.

And, naturally, there's the problem of micro-nurture (the Hitler family's shitty lives), and macro-nurture (the extremely anti-semitic culture of the area, the poorly-run nature of the Weimar Republic, and all the other shit I talked about earlier in the thread.)

I get a little sketchy when people talk about the antisemitic culture of Germany. Not long before the Nazis took over, Jews were pretty well liked in Germany. Jews were proud German citizens and quite patriotic. During WWI, Germany arguably treated Jews better than the UK. At that time, the UK was more paranoid about its Jewish population because they were afraid that UK Jews might collaborate with German Jews. Jews are always on both sides of the battlefield, we are always loyal, we are almost never treasonous, and yet no one ever believes it. We took a lot of flak during the American Civil War, too. Germany wasn't especially antisemitic until well after WWI. We sort of enjoyed a golden age there, before the Nazis.

[Amarok]

A long time ago, I did get stumped by a pro lifer, a teen on top of that. I was at a breakfast with my mom and her friends and their kids. The subject  came up and she faked a gun to my head with her finger, and said, "There I just aborted you". Stupid fucking argument..

I would responded "last I checked were not inside you " And " death is consequence of abortion not it's goal "

She followed it up with, "Well aren't you glad you are here?" I didn't know what I do now, and did not have access to the internet, because it didn't exist back then, and I have to admit, it shut me up for the moment, because she was right, I was happy I was alive.

Would be happy to live in a world were women are essentially just incubators or breeding stock . I sure wouldn't be .

---

And, naturally, there's the problem of micro-nurture (the Hitler family's shitty lives), and macro-nurture (the extremely anti-semitic culture of the area, the poorly-run nature of the Weimar Republic, and all the other shit I talked about earlier in the thread.)

I get a little sketchy when people talk about the antisemitic culture of Germany. Not long before the Nazis took over, Jews were pretty well liked in Germany. Jews were proud German citizens and quite patriotic. During WWI, Germany arguably treated Jews better than the UK. At that time, the UK was more paranoid about its Jewish population because they were afraid that UK Jews might collaborate with German Jews. Jews are always on both sides of the battlefield, we are always loyal, we are almost never treasonous, and yet no one ever believes it. We took a lot of flak during the American Civil War, too. Germany wasn't especially antisemitic until well after WWI. We sort of enjoyed a golden age there, before the Nazis.

Indeed solely blaming cultural anti Semitism isn't enough . How do we know if Hitler was raised in India she wouldn't have grown up hating Jains and wanting to exterminate them .

[Brian37]

Abortion should always remain the right of the female alone. Life is a crap shoot, and for every sperm that ends making it to the egg, there are millions more that don't. And for all the pregnancies that end up in adulthood, there are plenty of monsters that are produced in humanity. The key to a stable and free society isn't outlawing abortion, but good economic policies It does no good to bring a child into the world if they are abused or raised in poverty.

Most of the monsters we think of in human history were abused as children. Hitller's dad and Stalin's dad were authoritarians and that mental abuse alone can cause someone to grow up to abuse, and it is worse when that abusive person gets a high level of power.

And, naturally, there's the problem of micro-nurture (the Hitler family's shitty lives, the stuff parents can actually theoretically control), and macro-nurture (the extremely anti-semitic culture of the area, the poorly-run nature of the Weimar Republic, and all the other shit I talked about earlier in the thread that people couldn't.)

The idea of western pluralism is new in regards to the estimated 2 to 300 thousand year history of our current form of species. Even in most of our species written history in the age of king/city states, has been mostly rooted in tribalism and ignorance, and only 10,000 years of our species history. Humans are social animals, like other mammals like lions and elephants. Evolution drives many species to group and socialize and just like different species compete for resources even battles between groups of the same species compete for resources. 

Unfortunately evolution is not a utopia. Force unfortunately works like cooperation does. Humans do have however, have one attribute other life does not have, the higher  complexity  ability use force or diplomacy. But even with that complex language, it does not mean we will survive the same thing that killed the dinosaurs, or survive all 5 mass extinctions like the water bear has.

[Yonadav]

didn't say that I get to decide what the law is for everyone else.  I just said that I don't think that 'reproductive rights' is a real thing. I think that it is a term that confuses the issue. It is difficult to have an honest discussion about reproductive rights and responsibilities because so many people are expressing their worldview as if their worldview is the law, and a lot of wonky logic is being applied that doesn't work on any other issue.

The only alternative is a loss of bodily sovereignty and forced reproduction . Either a woman gets to decide what goes on in her own body and what can live in it or sovereignty is lost and others get to decide and then were does it end .

I don't know where it ends. I'm just not sure that it should end with a convenient lie about reproductive rights. It is a complicated issue. I personally am not opposed to abortion. But I am opposed to convenient lies. They grow into more malignant lies.

[Brian37]

The only alternative is a loss of bodily sovereignty and forced reproduction . Either a woman gets to decide what goes on in her own body and what can live in it or sovereignty is lost and others get to decide and then were does it end .

I don't know where it ends. I'm just not sure that it should end with a convenient lie about reproductive rights. It is a complicated issue. I personally am not opposed to abortion. But I am opposed to convenient lies. They grow into more malignant lies.

No it is not a complicated issue. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one. If it is not your body, stay the fuck out of it.

[Amarok]

The only alternative is a loss of bodily sovereignty and forced reproduction . Either a woman gets to decide what goes on in her own body and what can live in it or sovereignty is lost and others get to decide and then were does it end .

I don't know where it ends. I'm just not sure that it should end with a convenient lie about reproductive rights. It is a complicated issue. I personally am not opposed to abortion. But I am opposed to convenient lies. They grow into more malignant lies.

Accept it's not a lie . Women have to right to themselves sand nobody has the right dictate to them on the matter .

[Brian37]

There is no dignity to the individual without body autonomy.