Meaningfulness v meaninglessness; theism vs atheism;

[Edwardo Piet]

[...] 'illusory meaning' is the same as 'no meaning.'

By your logic the story of 'The Lord of the Rings' was never written because it isn't real.

[thesummerqueen]

...[gasp]...Legolas...isn't...real?!

[SOB!]

TELL ME EDWARD CULLEN IS!!

[Watson]

[...] 'illusory meaning' is the same as 'no meaning.'

By your logic the story of 'The Lord of the Rings' was never written because it isn't real.

That is not an apt analogy and you know it.

[Ashendant]

Faith(not religious faith) in a cause is independent of a Christian God, and love is chemical reaction

I disagree I believe love is real. Just like I beleive that truth actually exists, and I actually exist. I believe both of those assumptions without evidence, indeed both of them are suprarational. Likewise I believe love is real. It is more real than my physical body, or any other physical quality.

Love is real, it's just not spiritual real because the spiritual doesn't exist, it's just a bunch of chemistry set in your brain, truth is also real if it wasn't real we wouldn't exist.

All that can be explained by both Biological and Social Evolution

The fact that it can be explained in a limited sense by biological and social evoltution does not mean its true. For example, it can also be explained by use of the idea of God.[/quote]

That's really applying the God of Gaps Argument when all the gaps are already filled

What about them?

Christianity as as much as proof as them

You can believe in those things, but at the end of the day you are choosing to belive in something, and I think that a better arguement can be made for believing in God. I understand it is a difficult thing to wrestle with so I am not surprised when people end up on the other side of the decision. However, I think that we should all have a healthy respect for legitimate worldviews. If anything theism does make sense, and it is certainly plausible even if you or someone else cannot quite accept it for whatever reasons, perhaps a disdain for authority or the problem of evil is to big a problem to be explained away with the current explanations available.

Believing in wrathful, prideful, backwards deity is better than believing in the self-improvement of humanity?
I think not.
Theism only makes sense in the eyes of a theist and isn't plausible because there's no proof
I don't have a disdain for authority i have a disdain for baseless claims without proof, that's considered truth for no reason than simply thinking it's truth

Also i already solved the problem of evil

You accept that there is a truth, but you cannot prove that there is a truth. It is something you believe with faith becuase it makes everything else make sense, and because there is something deep within you that screams that there is truth. In the same way, perhaps more complex, I believe in God, becuase He makes everything make sense, Truth, love, meaning, right and wrong, intrinsic value, and because there is something deep within me that screams God is real, love is real, Truth is real, there is a right and there is a wrong and so on.

Truth is real, because if truth wasn't real so wouldn't we

Indoctrination, Insanity, Integration, one of these 3 things explains that thing inside you that screams that god is real

Also, I like the way you boil it down to what I beleive is the biggest problem with materialist atheism and that is " reality might just be a illusion of a feeble mind" I believe this is what atheism ultimately leads to, and that is why we are suffering in this "post modern" mentality where nothing is real and truth is an illusion. For this reason I calim that Theism is actually more rational than atheism, becuase within Theism reason is real. In materialistic atheism even laws of nature change. I chuckeled one time when a few weeks ago when I read a BBC news article that said some scientist has found evidence that the universe has been expanding and compressing forever. He said if this is true this means that laws change. And therefore Truth changes, there is no constant by which we can make absolute observations, that is apart from, everything is always changing, which itself makes no sense when everythign is always changing.

Nah that was just a silly nihilistic argument you weren't supposed to take that seriously.

And you misunderstand is not the laws that changed, it's our mind trying to understand reality that changes.[/quote]

[Edwardo Piet]

That is not an apt analogy and you know it.

Actually, it absolutely is an apt analogy.

You can enjoy a great story besides the fact it's nothing but fantasy. It can add meaning to your life despite its unreality.

As with meaning itself, who cares if it is all an illusion and imaginary if it's harmless and we recognize it as such? It still exists in the sense that the story of Lord of the Rings exists.

The placebo effect exists, self-fulfilling prophecies exist. So long as you realize and accept that fact and aren't deluded by it on a rational level, what's wrong with using it to your advantage? The placebo effect may be unreal but it does actually exist... despite its unreal and imaginary existence. That's how it has an effect on your life. As with fiction.

It's even the same with humour and laughter....

Is anything really intrinsically funny? Fuck no. Some things are just found to be funny by more people, and other things are found to be funny by less people. Something is funny because of your interpretation.... so it's ULTIMATELY nothing but a placebo. Laughter is a very positive placebo.... nothing is truly intrinsically funny, it's ultimately based on your own imagination.... does that mean it doesn't exist? Fuck no.

[KichigaiNeko]

...[gasp]...Legolas...isn't...real?!

[SOB!]

Wait! What??

Legolas isn't REAL!! ??

Well that just wrecked my weekend!!

[thesummerqueen]

Well that just wrecked my weekend!!

As long as Captain Jack Sparrow is real, we're okay.

[KichigaiNeko]

Well that just wrecked my weekend!!

As long as Captain Jack Sparrow is real, we're okay.

With you on THAT one SummerQueen!!

[Zen Badger]

and love is chemical reaction

I wonder how bad that tastes?

Apparently it's salty.

@ Dqualk, objective morality (right and wrong) is a non sequitor.

Because if morality was objective it would be the same everywhere and at every time.

Since it is quite demonstrably NOT the same everywhere, everytime it is obviously subjective.

Gravity is an objective truth, since it is the same (with the same effects) where ever and when ever it is.

Since morality changes over time and is different from place to place and society to society the ONLY place it will be found is in peoples heads.

Or does your god keep changing his mind about what is moral??

[dqualk]

@ DvF

You can enjoy a great story besides the fact it's nothing but fantasy. It can add meaning to your life despite its unreality.

As with meaning itself, who cares if it is all an illusion and imaginary if it's harmless and we recognize it as such? It still exists in the sense that the story of Lord of the Rings exists.

Yeah but any good myth/story should hit on truths ( I mean that in the absolute sense) what makes them good is that they give a vehicle in which universal truths can be presented. In LOTRO we are told that there is a cosmic struggle between good and evil, that even the weakest of people can change the world for the better. That we are not alone in our stuggle even when we feel alone. There there is a God with a plan, who has given us what is necessary to over come evil. And that good will win in the end.

@zen

Since morality changes over time and is different from place to place and society to society the ONLY place it will be found is in peoples heads.

Or does your god keep changing his mind about what is moral??

False, lets say someone believes that there is no gravity and that they floating everywhere, this would not disprove gravity. All you have done is shown that people have made mistakes with morality because it is a hard subject. And if you look hard enough you will see that morals are more similar than they appear at first glance. For example, people in India cremate, Christians bury, but the morals behind this is respect your dead. Also, some issues of morality are largely subjective.