What is forgiveness and what is not?

[Brian37]

It is natural to think, "Boy I would love to strangle that person."  It is illegal to actually do it, and most decent humans to not act on their impulses.

It isn't that you have "ill" thoughts, but in that you are naturally reacting to how someone behaved to you. What really matters is how you respond to how others act to you. You cant control them, and you cant kill them legally, so the only thing you can do is make a decision as to what you are willing to tolerate or not tolerate.

While breaking the law does bring bad consequences, we shouldn't base our morality on punishments or rewards. I personally don't think that anyone deserves the death penalty or to be physically or mentally harmed. What I do think they deserve is being called out and live the consequences of their actions.

But we are not talking about legal courts here. I only brought that up as an example.

It is really not that hard.

If you think you can put up with someone, even though occasionally they irritate you, that is fine. Everyone here has family and friends and co workers whom occasionally piss them off, but they can still tolerate and love.

Where it is right to cut someone off is when they go beyond the normal relationships to the point they suck the emotional life out of you,  are verbally and physically abusive to you.

Again, the ultimate control you have, is not over someone else, but yourself, so ultimately all you can do is request that someone not do something. If they continue then it is on you if you keep company or part company.

You can have a healthy relationship where disagreements happen, and even when you get mad at someone else. What is unhealthy is when you simply stay in a relationship that is one sided where you constantly bend, or put up with verbal or physical abuse. 

Walking away can be very healthy too. Even in divorce, it is possible that the separating parties simply realize there are no bad guys, but it simply did not work out.

The best relationships are about COMMUNICATION, not blame, not name calling, but problem solving. But even with the best intent, sometimes things do not work out.

If whom you are dealing with, be it a family member, friend, love partner or co worker, is truly concerned about you, listening they will do and a compromise to any problem will be sought. 

Abusive relationships, AND AGAIN, can be family, friend, co worker, is about one person simply trying to dominate you, without listening or caring about problem solving.

It is ok, to walk away. Ultimately your mental health matters the most.

[tackattack]

Forgiveness, as most people use it, doesn't absolve accountability, repentance or dismiss justice. From the OP it sounds like you stopped hating someone, which is good. It's good because change derived from bitterness instead of justice seldom is historically problematic in it's stability. I personally believe true forgiveness is a clean slate. That being said, as beings with a finite cause-effect timeline, it's practically impossible to not let that inform future behaviors. I suppose I'd say you've truly forgiven a person when: A. it doesn't bother you, what they did or you felt justice has been served and B. It doesn't affectively taint your bias in dealing with the other person in a meaningful way.

I would agree with Brian's point that it is highly subjective and personal. I would also agree with veoli's point that resolving the past gives a better present.

To Mr. Obvious, that's called lip service (more like dis-service) and usually does more harm in covering up problems then resolving them

[Brian37]

Forgiveness, as most people use it, doesn't absolve accountability, repentance or dismiss justice. From the OP it sounds like you stopped hating someone, which is good. It's good because change derived from bitterness instead of justice seldom is historically problematic in it's stability. I personally believe true forgiveness is a clean slate. That being said, as beings with a finite cause-effect timeline, it's practically impossible to not let that inform future behaviors. I suppose I'd say you've truly forgiven a person when: A. it doesn't bother you, what they did or you felt justice has been served and B. It doesn't affectively taint your bias in dealing with the other person in a meaningful way.

I would agree with Brian's point that it is highly subjective and personal. I would also agree with veoli's point that resolving the past gives a better present.

To Mr. Obvious, that's called lip service (more like dis-service) and usually does more harm in covering up problems then resolving them

EWE! A CHRISTIAN AGREED WITH ME.... YUCK!

Damn it, now I am going to have to barbecue some more kittens.

[Der/die AtheistIn]

Forgiveness, as most people use it, doesn't absolve accountability, repentance or dismiss justice. From the OP it sounds like you stopped hating someone, which is good. It's good because change derived from bitterness instead of justice seldom is historically problematic in it's stability. I personally believe true forgiveness is a clean slate. That being said, as beings with a finite cause-effect timeline, it's practically impossible to not let that inform future behaviors. I suppose I'd say you've truly forgiven a person when: A. it doesn't bother you, what they did or you felt justice has been served and B. It doesn't affectively taint your bias in dealing with the other person in a meaningful way.

I would agree with Brian's point that it is highly subjective and personal. I would also agree with veoli's point that resolving the past gives a better present.

To Mr. Obvious, that's called lip service (more like dis-service) and usually does more harm in covering up problems then resolving them

Actually, I don't think I stopped feeling mad entirely, but I feel less mad and don't want to keep bitterness inside.

[Brian37]

Forgiveness, as most people use it, doesn't absolve accountability, repentance or dismiss justice. From the OP it sounds like you stopped hating someone, which is good. It's good because change derived from bitterness instead of justice seldom is historically problematic in it's stability. I personally believe true forgiveness is a clean slate. That being said, as beings with a finite cause-effect timeline, it's practically impossible to not let that inform future behaviors. I suppose I'd say you've truly forgiven a person when: A. it doesn't bother you, what they did or you felt justice has been served and B. It doesn't affectively taint your bias in dealing with the other person in a meaningful way.

I would agree with Brian's point that it is highly subjective and personal. I would also agree with veoli's point that resolving the past gives a better present.

To Mr. Obvious, that's called lip service (more like dis-service) and usually does more harm in covering up problems then resolving them

Actually, I don't think I stopped feeling mad entirely, but I feel less mad and don't want to keep bitterness inside.

Well there is also a huge difference between "hate" and revenge(bitterness).

Hate can be a positive motivator. Just like if you hate your underwear riding up your ass, eventually you get to the point of adjusting it so it doesn't ride up your ass. That hate does not mean you go around giving other people wedgees.

For example. I hate old mythology. I don't hate the fact that it exists. I simply hate that people still cling to it. That "hate" isn't about human rights, but about caring enough about facts to call people out on bad logic. That "hate" does not mean that if a theist were t-boned in a traffic accident, that I would leave them bleeding in the street if they were in need of assistance.

I hated that my late mother was anal about where things went. She was a neat freak. When I was young we butted heads over that, but in her old age, I learned how to express our differences to the point where the compromise was there, and she learned that it was ok for me to be different.

You DON'T have to hate or be bitter to the point of acting out in destructive ways. But you do have the right to control yourself. 

Again, the bottom line is always to think of any relationship as, what you are willing to live with, and what is too much for you always keeping in mind that you can only control yourself. If you act to express yourself to explain a problem you have with another, that is fine. But once you do, and they respond positively or negatively, it is then only on you if you stay or go.

[bennyboy]

If you don't feel mad at someone anymore, but still think that they suck, at least regarding their mistake(s), did you forgive them? Is it forgiveness if you don't want to see that person anymore, but don't feel mad at them either?

Forgiveness is release from a just punishment under the social contract.  You've wronged me-- I would be perfectly right to blame you, and there's no statute of limitations on that.  But I choose to absolve you of that social punishment and to let it go.

[Brian37]

If you don't feel mad at someone anymore, but still think that they suck, at least regarding their mistake(s), did you forgive them? Is it forgiveness if you don't want to see that person anymore, but don't feel mad at them either?

Forgiveness is release from a just punishment under the social contract.  You've wronged me-- I would be perfectly right to blame you, and there's no statute of limitations on that.  But I choose to absolve you of that social punishment and to let it go.

Even if you let it go, it does not mean you still have to keep company with the one who hurt you.

[The Grand Nudger]

If you don't feel mad at someone anymore, but still think that they suck, at least regarding their mistake(s), did you forgive them? Is it forgiveness if you don't want to see that person anymore, but don't feel mad at them either?

Forgiveness is release from a just punishment under the social contract.  You've wronged me-- I would be perfectly right to blame you, and there's no statute of limitations on that.  But I choose to absolve you of that social punishment and to let it go.

-whereas redemption absolves you even in the face of non-existent forgiveness.

[bennyboy]

Forgiveness is release from a just punishment under the social contract.  You've wronged me-- I would be perfectly right to blame you, and there's no statute of limitations on that.  But I choose to absolve you of that social punishment and to let it go.

Even if you let it go, it does not mean you still have to keep company with the one who hurt you.

Absolutely not.  Sometimes, the only way you can forgiveness, and mean it, is if you don't have that person's face there reminding you of whatever they did to you.

It's not, "Gee, dad, I forgive you for beating the shit out of me when I was a kid. . . I know you were struggling with alcohol, so let's go out and throw a ball just to catch up on the good ol' days."  Although, sometimes it's that.

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Forgiveness is release from a just punishment under the social contract.  You've wronged me-- I would be perfectly right to blame you, and there's no statute of limitations on that.  But I choose to absolve you of that social punishment and to let it go.

-whereas redemption absolves you even in the face of non-existent forgiveness.

That statement seems slightly cryptic to me.  Can you elaborate what you mean by it?

[Brian37]

Even if you let it go, it does not mean you still have to keep company with the one who hurt you.

Absolutely not.  Sometimes, the only way you can forgiveness, and mean it, is if you don't have that person's face there reminding you of whatever they did to you.

It's not, "Gee, dad, I forgive you for beating the shit out of me when I was a kid. . . I know you were struggling with alcohol, so let's go out and throw a ball just to catch up on the good ol' days."  Although, sometimes it's that.

---

-whereas redemption absolves you even in the face of non-existent forgiveness.

That statement seems slightly cryptic to me.  Can you elaborate what you mean by it?

I agree, sometimes some people go back to abusive people despite what was done to them, hoping things will change.

Those are odds I wouldn't bet on though.