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What is forgiveness and what is not?
#21
RE: What is forgiveness and what is not?
If you want forgiveness, go see Jesus.

I prefer payback.


Pretty much everyone does - if they're honest about it.


Tongue
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#22
RE: What is forgiveness and what is not?
I have a little narrative to share that I hope can shed light on this.

When I was a kid, my parents were already divorced. I lived with my mom-- she alternately neglected or abused me. In my teens, she often said stuff like, "I love you biologically, because I"m your mom and I can't help it, but I really don't like you as a person." Or, she just called me a "little piece of shit" a lot.

I went to live with my dad. In about 2 months, he learned that I'd been ditching classes. He gave me $300, told me to get out of the house and never come back, and that was it-- me on the streets a the age of 15.

I forgave my father because the common opinion about him was that he was incapable of getting along with people-- he just didn't have the personality to get along with a teenager. But today, my daughter is living with him (Korean schools are a fucking nightmare, so I took a chance). They are getting along famously.

But that turns out to be hard for me-- it turns out that my father DOES have the personality to get along with a teenager, and he CAN live happily together with someone. That has kind of rewritten history for me-- all that abuse on the streets, from dirty old pervs on one side and cops on the other, all those cold nights, all the drugs that I took just because they made me feel warmer or less hungry.

It's actually put me in a state of crisis-- I'm happy because my daughter is doing okay in Canada. However, the only way I can continue to forgive my apparently full-functioning social father is to take the blame onto my own shoulders: I have to identify as the non-functional one, and say that going maybe right back to my childhood, the problem has always been me. That's not easy to do, and then still get up in the morning.
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#23
RE: What is forgiveness and what is not?
Just realized I'd neglected this thread.   Hell of a trip ,Benny.  I had three dads.  One that I never knew, and for the most part never knew I had.  Teenage love, right?  One that I knew and lost twice..the first time to divorce the second to an untimely death.  The third, to divorce and crack (not even kidding, lol).

Of the three, and to elaborate on my earlier comments -

The first never got my forgiveness..never really needed it, I suppose.  He went on to live a wonderful life and have a wonderful family that I just met last year.  His life was redeeming regardless of forgiveness.

The second was forgiven from the moment of separation, but he died in a tub in his parents house, indebted to my mother...destitute, and unredeemed (though he'd tried).  

The third, the damned crackhead, needs neither forgiveness nor redemption.  He was legitimately the best of the three, and raised me through my teenage years.  I have his mannerisms, his laugh, his sense of humor, his football loyalties (lol).   He got me my first real job, a great fuckin job - and I translated that into a great life when I found myself in a shitty position and had to rebuild the whole sorry thing.  Poor guy just loved him some rock.  I hear he's a twelve stepper who works for fedex now.  

My mother...well, she's a force of fucking nature.  Forgiveness and redemption mean about as much in reference to her as they do when tornado rips through a trailer park. 

Me.., I'll die unforgiven and unredeemable, but hopefully not in my mothers tub, lol. Those who could forgive me for the many things I have done that can be forgiven largely have, but it can never overcome the weight of those unforgiveable things, nor could any act in my life possibly redeem it in light of those past acts. All of which I'd do again, if I did it all over, if I'm honest.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#24
RE: What is forgiveness and what is not?
If I were to define forgiveness with my heart instead of a dictionary I'd say forgiveness is a process of reconciling something broken with your view of the brokenness. Sometimes we need to forgive ourselves so we can change and adapt and grow more healthy as an individual. Sometimes we offer forgiveness to someone else who has wronged us. That person can accept it and change or not, but in that case the forgiveness is more for the forgiver than the forgivee (sp?).

Offering forgiveness is a process that usually involves, seeing something broken, dealing with the emotions of that brokenness, understanding how it happened to grow beyond and then justly reconciling that. A lot of people don't get past step 2 and want to jump to justice which is bitter and vengeful as Brian said. Just because you're not mad/upset about something, doesn't mean you understand it. You must understand it to grow from it. Someone wronging you makes you the victim. It doesn't mean you had zero part in an issue, but being the victim means there is a social and personal need for justice. No forgiveness should excuse accountability and responsibility for making someone a victim. All that's just IMO, don't know how much more I have to add on the subject. Sounds like a lot of peple have had much harder lives than mine and I salute each of you for having the courage to share yourselves and appreciate your candor.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#25
RE: What is forgiveness and what is not?
I can only give you my personal answer to this question. What constitutes forgiveness or not (and whether I would forgive them or not) is going to be contextual, based on the person who has wronged me (their character, their history, their relation to me, the level of bonding I have with them), the nature (and severity/frequency) of the wrong committed, the motive(s) behind it, and how I feel about the person and the offense itself. It's a lot of factors to consider, and often times when I do forgive, I don't do so simply because of anything virtuous within me, but rather because I normally get along with the offender otherwise and I care enough to rebuild/repair the fond friendship/relationship I have with them. As such, in many cases, I will forgive (in the sense of letting go of feeling the need to see the offender punished in some way) without that person even asking me to forgive them. On the other hand, I see forgiveness in the "true" sense ultimately requires the offender to actually seek for that forgiveness first.

(February 6, 2019 at 4:11 pm)Der/die AtheistIn Wrote: If you don't feel mad at someone anymore, but still think that they suck, at least regarding their mistake(s), did you forgive them? Is it forgiveness if you don't want to see that person anymore, but don't feel mad at them either?

You could say you have forgiven them somewhat, but not to the extent that you ever want to have a proper relationship with them ever again.

So IMO you haven't completely forgiven them, but you're ready to let the hurt go and move on.
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#26
RE: What is forgiveness and what is not?
(February 6, 2019 at 4:11 pm)Der/die AtheistIn Wrote: If you don't feel mad at someone anymore, but still think that they suck, at least regarding their mistake(s), did you forgive them? Is it forgiveness if you don't want to see that person anymore, but don't feel mad at them either?

To me, forgiveness can be when someone makes a mistake and I give them the benefit of the doubt that it was just a mistake and that it won't happen again, e.g. you spilled some food in my car and it left a small stain. Yes, I was a little upset that you weren't more careful, but you said it was a mistake so I let it go, cleaned it up and called it a wash. I'm not mad anymore and you don't have to feel bad anymore. It happened, you fucked up, it's over with, let's move on.

However, I think the idea of forgiveness gets a little more complicated when the behavior in question is repeated time and time again. If every other time you get in my car, you're spilling drinks or food, burning holes in my seat, etc. etc... after two or three times of this I'm going to have to ask myself, does this person simply not respect me and/or my property? Let's say I just chalk it up to you being clumsy and say either way, whether you're clumsy or being a dick, I forgive you, but you can no longer bring drinks or food in my car and I won't let you smoke in here anymore. You're forgiven, even though what you were doing may have been disrespectful to me, but I still now have to set up another boundary to show you how exactly I expect to be treated. So, no more hard feelings, I'm not mad, you don't need to feel bad, you're forgiven, but no more food and drink or smoking in the car.

Now, if you then continue, every other time I pick you up, to go and get in my car with a drink or a cigarette in your hand, I'm now going to flat out call you out for not respecting me or my car. Now, we have an issue. At this point, I'll probably stop giving you rides and chances are I won't see you nearly as often because you clearly don't respect me or my boundaries. Are you forgiven this time? No. You have repeatedly disrespected me, gone against my wishes and deliberately smacked me in the face, so to speak, by not respecting said boundaries. Now, in my opinion, this doesn't mean I need to stay mad at you forever, but it doesn't mean you'll ever be forgiven either. Personally, I don't see a lack of forgiveness as proof of anger still being present. I can give up being mad at you but still decide that what you did was purposeful and decide that you're not forgiven in the sense that, there's nothing to forgive, you are simply treating me in a way I don't want to be treated, so I'm not going to treat you the same as before, I'm going to treat you differently.

Granted this is a trivial example and I wouldn't hold a grudge for a lifetime over something like this, but I'd probably drift away from this person, to be honest. It doesn't mean I need to deliberately be angry with you or hold some kind of resentment, but I also don't have to consider you forgiven. You were a dick to me and I called you out on it, you didn't change so I, instead, changed how our relationship works/worked. No big deal. Doesn't need to be a big thing, just me standing up for myself and what I feel is right.

I think everyone has different definitions of forgiveness though; often people don't even understand their own boundaries well enough to even know what forgiveness means to them.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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#27
RE: What is forgiveness and what is not?
I try to forgive people who injure me. I truly do. I usually manage eventually. Sadly, my ex wife remains the single exception.

I say 'sadly' for my sake, not hers; she doesn't know how. I feel. My negative feelings are wasted, and that's THE point:

I try to let go of hatred and resentments because they harm me, the person.  It's pragmatic to forgive. I think this also a sound psychological principle.

There is also the adage "Love your enemies, it will drive them nuts". Especially useful if one has schedenfreude.

There is a documentary about a Holocaust survivor who forgave  her Nazis tormentors. She did this for herself, but received a lot of criticism from other survivors.

I guess it's a complex issue, as important things often are.  I think the documentary below is worth some time, not necessary to watch the whole thing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDA2QsN2sXs
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#28
RE: What is forgiveness and what is not?
Those who show an honest desire to change i will forgive . Those who don't must learn this lesson .
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.

Inuit Proverb

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#29
RE: What is forgiveness and what is not?
I think perhaps a smidge judgemental.

Personally, I couldn't care less if the person "learns a lesson" or not.  My  forgiveness  is unconditional and selfish. It is for my sake, not theirs. 

Hatred and resentment  are heavy burdens which harm no one except the person carrying the burden. Not always true of course. Some people become so bitter and twisted that they reach for a weapon and kill people. OR far worse, get other people to commit murder, as with suicide bombers. 

I prefer to drop the burden if I can. Not always possible, but  I try. I have no idea how I would respond if anyone ever asked me for forgiveness. I like to think I would comply.
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#30
RE: What is forgiveness and what is not?
(February 7, 2019 at 5:59 pm)tackattack Wrote: "Offering forgiveness is a process that usually involves, seeing something broken, dealing with the emotions of that brokenness, understanding how it happened to grow beyond and then justly reconciling that. "

I think this is how it works with me. When I'm asked about a specific person or wrong and whether I can forgive, I get stumped at that word because I never feel forgiveness has anything to do with it. IT,s more like you say, working through it, deciding if the situation is ongoing, deciding that if it is something - whether past or not - that should be tolerated. As an example, my ex was abusive to my kids and I. Forgiveness doesn't come into it. His actions were never ok, never will be ok, forginess is irrelevant. I made changes so that we are safe, really took time to understand his nature so I could decide how to deal with him, worked past my anger, and that's it. There's nothing more to do. I see no place or reason for forginess, just makes no sense to me and if he ever asks me if I forgive him, I'd have to tell him it's not ok what he did, and if he wants to live with it, he needs to find his own way.

"No forgiveness should excuse accountability and responsibility for making someone a victim. "

Probably why I don't see the point of forgiveness, feels like a doge of responsibility and a way of avoiding working through anger.
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