Ban Intersex Surgery for Children: Yes or No?

[Yonadav]

This isn't a subject I can weigh in on, and maybe this is way off-topic but this reminds me of an episode of The Orville which centred around a healthy female baby being forcefully turned into a male because their society had only male members and females were shunned. In that case the parent's made the decision due to social pressure, and in our society of the past too things weren't very different. I can understand a parent making such a decision in the hopes of sparing their child a life of being a social outcast, and I can also understand how deeply painful such a life-altering decision can be for the person who had to grow up with a body and gender identity that they do not agree with.

Honestly, I don't think there's a general solution to this, rather it has to be taken on a case by case basis.

 

The issue is complex for sure, but the solution is generally simple, 

You watched a television show and now you are an authority with a simple solution.

[GrandizerII]

 

The issue is complex for sure, but the solution is generally simple, 

You watched a television show and now you are an authority with a simple solution.

Yes, that must be it.

Are you going to at least address anything I said in my earlier response to you? You know, sources and all, since you obviously know it all, and all those human rights organizations in the UN and elsewhere are idiots beneath you in expertise and intelligence. I guess they themselves all they did was watch a TV show and that's why their conclusion ends up being the same one I'm arguing.

[Yonadav]

You watched a television show and now you are an authority with a simple solution.

Yes, that must be it.

Are you going to at least address anything I said in my earlier response to you? You know, sources and all, since you obviously know it all, and all those human rights organizations in the UN and elsewhere are idiots beneath you in expertise and intelligence. I guess they themselves all they did was watch a TV show and that's why their conclusion ends up being the same one I'm arguing.

 I'm not going to give you any sources because you just want to take sides on an issue that you don't know anything about. It's all about sides to you, and you are just going act like I am arguing an opposing point of view. I'm pretty sure that I know more about this issue than you do, but I don't know enough to take sides on it.

So here's a question for you. Some intersexed people have had surgeries as toddlers that they grew up to be resentful of. Are the opinions of these people representative of intersexed people in general?

[GrandizerII]

Yes, that must be it.

Are you going to at least address anything I said in my earlier response to you? You know, sources and all, since you obviously know it all, and all those human rights organizations in the UN and elsewhere are idiots beneath you in expertise and intelligence. I guess they themselves all they did was watch a TV show and that's why their conclusion ends up being the same one I'm arguing.

 I'm not going to give you any sources because you just want to take sides on an issue that you don't know anything about. It's all about sides to you, and you are just going act like I am arguing an opposing point of view. I'm pretty sure that I know more about this issue than you do, but I don't know enough to take sides on it.

But if you won't post sources to support your points, I can't know that you know more about this issue than I do. How do I know you weren't being misleading with some of your words?

So here's a question for you. Some intersexed people have had surgeries as toddlers that they grew up to be resentful of. Are the opinions of these people representative of intersexed people in general?

Probably not. But representativeness isn't the point here.

This is what needs to be considered (not numbers, but what is the morally right thing to do):

http://www.isna.org/faq/concealment

That's an authority on this subject, by the way. So you don't need to worry about my "expertise" ...

[Aoi Magi]

The problem is that many intersex people, after going through these surgeries when younger, experience various forms of trauma, seeing that society is unable to accept them for who they are because they want every individual to either be clearly a man with a penis or a woman with a vagina. And in addition, even parents report feeling regret later on when they realize they had been lied to by their doctors and thereby had to face the dreaded moments of confessing to their own children the fuckups they allowed.

The issue is complex for sure, but the solution is generally simple, if you put top priority on the basic human rights of the individual: let the intersex children decide for themselves once they have informed consent about the whole thing. It's not like parents always know what's best for their kids. And as for social pressure and such, intersex individuals shouldn't have to pay for the cruelty of society. People need to fucking learn to show support and understanding for these people and not let convention dictate how these individuals should be like.

The thing, I feel, is that this trauma can occur in both situations, children who are transgender are not easily accepted in society even in this age, no matter how much we say that they should be accepted! The reality that I see around me is that people are still being driven to depression and suicide if not outright killed for breaking the so-called gender norm of society. A child who has to face this might grow to resent not only their parents for not giving them a potential "normal" life, but also themselves thinking it is their fault for being different!

[tackattack]

@Aoi Magi All kids are different, all people are different. The problem is with scietal's ideals of cookie cutter peple and families and that different is bad. If parent's can't teach their child this simple flaw in society then society should pick up the mantle and rail against normality, IMO.

[Yonadav]

 I'm not going to give you any sources because you just want to take sides on an issue that you don't know anything about. It's all about sides to you, and you are just going act like I am arguing an opposing point of view. I'm pretty sure that I know more about this issue than you do, but I don't know enough to take sides on it.

But if you won't post sources to support your points, I can't know that you know more about this issue than I do. How do I know you weren't being misleading with some of your words?

So here's a question for you. Some intersexed people have had surgeries as toddlers that they grew up to be resentful of. Are the opinions of these people representative of intersexed people in general?

Probably not. But representativeness isn't the point here.

This is what needs to be considered (not numbers, but what is the morally right thing to do):

http://www.isna.org/faq/concealment

That's an authority on this subject, by the way. So you don't need to worry about my "expertise" ...

It's not a contest about who knows more. It's about knowing that you don't know enough to have such a strong opinion. You've acknowledged that those who are resentful of surgeries that they had as toddlers are probably not representative of intersexed people in general-- and yet you are appointing yourself to be the spokesperson on an intersex issue for intersexed people in general.

[GrandizerII]

But if you won't post sources to support your points, I can't know that you know more about this issue than I do. How do I know you weren't being misleading with some of your words?


Probably not. But representativeness isn't the point here.

This is what needs to be considered (not numbers, but what is the morally right thing to do):

http://www.isna.org/faq/concealment

That's an authority on this subject, by the way. So you don't need to worry about my "expertise" ...

It's not a contest about who knows more. It's about knowing that you don't know enough to have such a strong opinion. You've acknowledged that those who are resentful of surgeries that they had as toddlers are probably not representative of intersexed people in general-- and yet you are appointing yourself to be the spokesperson on an intersex issue for intersexed people in general.

So you're not going to provide any sources to back up what you said earlier. Dodge noted.

Anyway, yes, correct, a democracy would be a bad idea in this case because we're dealing with violations of bodily and autonomy rights here. And even then, I don't have the numbers (for all we know, it's probably 50/50). Again, check out the link to an authority on this topic and let them do the talking. You're looking at this in a sociopathic manner instead of prioritizing all the variables involved in a way that treats each intersexed individual with dignity.

[Yonadav]

It's not a contest about who knows more. It's about knowing that you don't know enough to have such a strong opinion. You've acknowledged that those who are resentful of surgeries that they had as toddlers are probably not representative of intersexed people in general-- and yet you are appointing yourself to be the spokesperson on an intersex issue for intersexed people in general.

So you're not going to provide any sources to back up what you said earlier. Dodge noted.

Anyway, yes, correct, a democracy would be a bad idea in this case because we're dealing with violations of bodily and autonomy rights here. And even then, I don't have the numbers (for all we know, it's probably 50/50). Again, check out the link to an authority on this topic and let them do the talking. You're looking at this in a sociopathic manner instead of prioritizing all the variables involved in a way that treats each intersexed individual with dignity.

But you're the one who wants intersexed issues to be decided by popular public opinion. So you clearly think that intersexed issues should be decided democratically, and you are campaigning for your side. The issue should be decided by those who really understand the complexities of the issue, and medical policy should evolve in response to copious feedback from intersexed people.

And I'm not dodging you. I'm simply refusing to have the kind of argument that you want to have-- one in which you pretend to be an expert on the issue with the help of google. You aren't interested in being right. You just want to play eristic games.

[GrandizerII]

So you're not going to provide any sources to back up what you said earlier. Dodge noted.

Anyway, yes, correct, a democracy would be a bad idea in this case because we're dealing with violations of bodily and autonomy rights here. And even then, I don't have the numbers (for all we know, it's probably 50/50). Again, check out the link to an authority on this topic and let them do the talking. You're looking at this in a sociopathic manner instead of prioritizing all the variables involved in a way that treats each intersexed individual with dignity.

But you're the one who wants intersexed issues to be decided by popular public opinion. So you clearly think that intersexed issues should be decided democratically, and you are campaigning for your side.

You are being disingenuous here, and you know that.

The issue should be decided by those who really understand the complexities of the issue, and medical policy should evolve in response to copious feedback from intersexed people.

Ok, fine. I've researched organization that really understand the complexities of the issue. I gave you a link to one of them. There's also the UN and other organizations in Europe and elsewhere.

And I'm not dodging you. I'm simply refusing to have the kind of argument that you want to have-- one in which you pretend to be an expert on the issue with the help of google. You aren't interested in being right. You just want to play eristic games.

Well, what do you have then? You accuse me of playing games, but what are you doing then?